Deja Vu tassled filefish again

[Specialk]

I had a Tassled filefish for years, that developed this same lump, it took about 24 hours for the internal organs to fall out of him. I feel like deJa Vu all over again, because here I go again with this next one. I do not know the cause, a blockage of some type? To large a piece of meaty food? Is it Species only?

The other one ate a piece of meaty food that was to large for him, the next morning his internal organs were completely out of him, he was still alive and swimming, I had to put him down.

I feed a variety of meaty foods and green, Raw Shrimp, Crab, Mahi Mahi, Shark Steaks, Ocean Perch, Squid, Octo, Flounder, Red Snapper, Frozen Sand Eels, Mussels and Scallops. My greens consist of Nori and Fresh frozen Peas Thawed.

This file still wants to eat, I gave some Nori today but am not risking meaty foods. I moved the fish over to my 90g quarantine using a bucket, I avoid nets at all cost.

I am probably going to lose him, I am at a loss and probably have no longer than tomorrow with this fish in this situation. I am just trying to understand the cause.

Anyone seen this before? If you have any idea or seen it before please let me know.

I posted this for kelly J. because why 2 of the same species, maybe the diet? I know they can be tough to keep long term. If nothing else I will try to get a answer for this, just in-case someone else experiences the same situation.











Kaye

[Specialk]

Kelly replied........

Might try an epsom salt bath...or perhaps cod liver oil laced food....I would be afraid to massage too aggressively in fear that if what is blocked has sharp 'edges'. Also could damage the epithelial skin layer.

Any chance this could be bacterial infection? Might be worth administering antibiotics as an outside possibility.

I have seen prolapsing of the rectum/colon in puffers before and it was associated in the two cases with mycobacterium.

Again, sorry but I am glad you are back.

Please keep us posted and best of luck.



I am going to treat with an antibiotic and try the "cod liver oil laced food", nothing to lose right now, the clock is ticking with this fish. I find it strange to experience this twice now with the same species.

Kaye

[Tim!]

I really hope that helps - but I agree, trying a laxative and antibiotic bath approach are probably your best bets.

My concern, however, is if it DOES have "sharp edges" - might it not injure the fish moving through the intestines anyhow? I don't know - but not sure what you would have fed with sharp edges, unless this guy chomped on some shells of some kind independantly of what you fed...?

Hopefully her suggestions will work - post back what happens, if you can, OK?

Good luck!

[Specialk]

My concern, however, is if it DOES have "sharp edges" - might it not injure the fish moving through the intestines anyhow?

I would think the same thing.

but not sure what you would have fed with sharp edges, unless this guy chomped on some shells of some kind independantly of what you fed...?

I don't keep any shells in the tank, they can cause a blockage, I avoid them because of lions, they have been known to eat them. I really never see this fish pick at the rocks, it is a top dweller. There are a few small rock chunks in the tank but that is my trigger, biting them off carrying them around and so on.

I was thinking more internal parasite than bacterial, but maybe it is bacterial and this species is susceptible to a certain type of bacterial infection.

I am wondering, if I am feeding something I should not feed such as the Frozen sand eels, they are small but I am sure they have bones....... Yikes just thinking this through. What do you think?

My other filefish ate a large piece of food (Raw Shrimp) the day before, I don't think I fed frozen sand eels at that time, after seeing this lump before, the intestines came completely out of the fish ..... So now I feel panicked and feel like I need a solution. If it is a blockage, than only in this species have I dealt with it.


Kaye

[Tim!]

Originally Posted by Specialk

I am wondering, if I am feeding something I should not feed such as the Frozen sand eels, they are small but I am sure they have bones....... Yikes just thinking this through. What do you think?

The fish has to eat things with bones/shells in the wild - maybe usually smallish (amphipods, small shrimps, etc.), but I can't believe it would actually get something through it's mouth/throat, and then past the stomach that would hurt it?

I might be underestimating them (I know Puffers & Lions, and other group type fish CAN kill themselve by eating stuff too big), but my experience with most Triggers/Files is that they actually tend to chew and spit out what won't fit properly - and then chew and spit out again until it works...

Could it be backed up? Again, the laxative could resolve that.

But if it ruptured last time, that's pretty darn serious - and would think it would either be a "mass" or "gas" that continues to grow... Short of removing the mass or puncturing to release the gas, I'm not sure what you can do. I don't know if you want to do surgery on the fish or not?

I hope he's okay - this stinks.

Did you try Anthony Calfo directly via MarineDepot too? He may know more...

[Specialk]

You are right, they do chew and spit, I posted in Kelly's area and I know they check each others forum so I hope he checks it out.


Updates may go fast on this one, It is twice the size right now, it looks like it is trying to pass a Pea? Could it be fresh frozen peas thawed doing this? I do remove the skin from my peas before feeding.

Could it be backed up? Again, the laxative could resolve that.

That's what it looks like.

I don't know if you want to do surgery on the fish or not?

I am not sure if that is possible, to much would need removed. I almost want to slightly squeeze it just in-case the pea is stuck?

Kaye

[Tim!]

Well, I'm not a fish anatomy whiz - but it looks like it's completely cleared the intestines and is in the colon/rectum area?

Is this the same spot it made it to with your last fish?

If you're experience is *identical* - doing something different (i.e. a little squeeze) would certainly be a possibility given that the previous experience was fatal.

However, I'd worry about tearing the rectum if the object is too solid. Is there a way to "puncture" the pea (or whatever it is?) - can you hold the fish and try to crush/compact the blockage before pushing it out - maybe make it easier on the fish in the long run and prevent a wound?

I really don't know - I'm just tossing this out there...

[Specialk]

Is this the same spot it made it to with your last fish?

The other fish looked more bloated, I did not see anything trying to pass like this one. It looks like the pea is about to pass here anytime. My other fish I did not think to much about it when I seen a small lump one night, I did not get to experience the whole thing like this, it had a small lump and by moring the intestines were out, that was horrible, and it was acting normal, seen me wanted to eat and so on.


Kaye

[Specialk]

The Pea passed and it is larger, it is trying to pass more right now.


Kaye

[Specialk]

The file ate peas this morning, that is the first time in quite a while I have fed peas, but when I thought this through, I fed the peas after the lump because I thought blockage.

It has passed 3 of them now and the lump is going down some, I will up date with pictures soon.

kaye

[Specialk]

OK here are my events....lol

Pass the Peas please!




3 pea halves passed and it started to go down


Here it is right now


Here is what I have learned, besides STOP getting difficult fish and STOP taking in sick.... lol

Kelly said:

Does appear to look like a pea....many marine biologist friends have told me not to feed non-natural foods to marine fish - so maybe this is why. Whenever I asked why - they would only say it is not natural..........

ME - I did not know this!

If you had a fish anesthetic (MS-222 or clove oil), you could try some and possibly inserting a small angiocath (24 gauge) well lubricated into the anus/rectum to see if there was a blockage at the internal sphincter.....also by relaxing the fish, there could be a possibility of the fish relaxing enough to pass the "mass". I am wondering if the matter has caused a twisting of the intestines?

Me- Which is still possible with the twisting.


I have a couple puffers that can not eat peas as within 12 hours of eating them, they become buoyant and struggle to swim. When placed in a weighted critter box on the bottom, they will pass the peas and flatus/gas after about another 6 - 18 hours and return to "normal".

Me - First time I have heard of problems when feeding peas, well that's it for me and peas. I did ask her if this also applies to broccoli.

I am in a hobby that never gets boring and I can learn all the time

Kaye

[gfox]

Kaye,Does it look like the fish will make it now?After passing the peas.I bet you will have a special on peas.Good luck and you are right about learning something new all the time.

[BeakerBob]

I think this problem is called a prolapsed rectum....something fairly common in humans for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, I can't find anything on a quick search for this in fish.

[Specialk]

Does it look like the fish will make it now?

I fed chopped scallops tonight, it is a soft food, we will see it passes meaty foods.

I think this problem is called a prolapsed rectum

Thanks bob, I will do a search on this tomorrow and see what I come up with.


Kaye

[Tim!]

Glad that's passed

Seriously, glad it's looking up - what an interesting situation (although I CERTAINLY understand your concerns while it was ongoing).

Not sure if it will cause any distress intestinely for the long term, would think if it passed through intact, it's unlikely there is any internal damage - more likely if the peas didn't pass properly.

So much for "chewing before swallowing!" for files, eh?

Thanks for sharing your ordeal - you've made us all smarter.