Few Overall Start Up Questions

[katymunoz]

Originally Posted by E-quality

Forgot to mention that 84 degrees is fine if that ends up being what you can get the tank down to. That's the upper limit of where you want your tank to be but it's perfectly fine even if it jumps up to 85 here and there. No need to go out and trade your car in for a chiller.

yea i agree, that's why i said 85 during the night is not going to work, because during the day with the lights on, it will go higher than the 85. Probably raise it to 87-88 degrees.

Plus you really don't want to be messing around with temps that high. When you are at the high end of the "reasonable temps", all it takes is one extra hot day and you kill off your entire tank.

Better to leave yourself some cushion room, rather than risk a tank crash on a daily basis during the summer.

[dputt88]

e quality, im not getting at what you're saying. the cycle only works in one direction like katy said, the nitrate in you system is going to stay there until one of three tings happens, 1) mecanical/ chemical removal, use of skimmers, nitrate removing media or a combination of the 2 (biopellets). 2) assimilation, uptake by plants. or 3) anaerobic processes of the nitrogen cycle.

[Naiad]

Originally Posted by E-quality

I know. That's why I'm saying you'll see nitrates pop up, then possibly nitrites, then ammonia if things get really bad. The cycle always remains the same though, we get it. I hope that clarifies what I'm saying.

I think what he is saying is once the cycle is over to watch for a large build up in nitrate which indicates your bio-load is exceeding your removal methods. If this is not dealt with properly the bacteria will die off and you will again see spikes in the level of ammonia and nitrites. Once it reaches this point it becomes very likely that your livestock will die off. Extremely High nitrate kills the bacteria that produces it thus leading to a slow down in the nitrogen cycle in the tank so ammonia and nitrite are no longer being converted at a proper rate and build up again. This is one form of a tank crash.
Jen

[E-quality]

That's pretty much it. Thanks.

I'll quote the second half of my post on the cycle and what to watch out for after the tank is established and I think it's just as clear as the explanations are.

Originally Posted by E-quality

The "cycle" is complete when all three levels drop but building the tank up too fast will overload the tank and cause them to rise, starting with nitrate, then nitrite, then ammonia in that order. Rising nitrate levels is the first indication that there are issues that need to be resolved. Take it slow.

Most importantly, enjoy it and take it slow!

Ammonia spikes first on a water test during the initial cycle. Nitrate (not ammonia)spikes first on a water test on an established tank. I'm sure that everyone can agree on that.

[katymunoz]

Originally Posted by E-quality

Ammonia spikes first on a water test during the initial cycle. Nitrate (not ammonia)spikes first on a water test on an established tank. I'm sure that everyone can agree on that.

Lol, I swear I'm not trying to be the antagonist in this conversation, but I don't agree with that. I still think it is the ammonia that spikes first, but it can be converted to nitrate pretty quickly, so unless you happen to test at the beginning of the cycle, you might have missed those stages, leaving only a reading of nitrate. Note: I did say "I think" because I am not 100% sure, but it only makes sense to me that the ammonia would have to be first, since it's not a true "cycle" because it doesn't keep repeating itself, it goes from ammonia to nitrate, and then stops. It's not like the nitrate converts back to ammonia and keeps going... Or you would never be able to get out of it..,... But I could be wrong, and I would sincerely like to know if I am, because I'm always up to learning new things! That's what makes this hobby fun!

[Naiad]

Yes it starts with ammonia but as long as it is converted and not sitting around it isn't a problem and isn't really "spiking", it is still being processed. Though if you really jump the gun with stocking you can get a huge ammonia spike right away by adding way to much waste at once. The problem comes with getting your export method (water changes! babby, they are very important) to match your bio-load so you don't get a back-up of nitrate at the end of the line. This is the nitrate "spike" E-quality was referring to. A bunch of nitrate with no where to go. If not dealt with it can slow down the nitrification process and then cause the others to spike because they are not being processed as efficiently as they used to. Kinda like a back-up on an assembly line. The nitrate is not being converted into nitrite but slowing down the rate at which nitrite is being converted into nitrate and the same with ammonia into nitrite. This happens because high nitrate causes changes in pH and oxygen lvls (indirectly in some cases) which in turn affects how efficiently the bacteria work. E-Quality was just trying to tell babby to watch the nitrate lvl as the tank matures so that it doesn't get outta control.

[Jim_Dont_Care]

well i think some one was looking for help not a 3 way agrument just my thought

[Naiad]

Originally Posted by jim48442

well i think some one was looking for help not a 3 way agrument just my thought

No argument here, though it has gotten off topic. SRY, Babby.

[dputt88]

I think Niads got it. And i was misunderstanding e quality as well. but....
if your nitrates are reasonable and you add too much live stock at once. You would still first see a rise in ammonia because you never had sufficient bacteria to process the new bioload into nitrate anyways. So wouldnt you still see a spike in ammonia first?

Now if you let your nitrates get out of control and stuff starts dieing cuz of it. The i guess it would be a build up of nitrates leading to a spike in ammonia.

So nitrate will never lead to nitrie then ammonia. But could in a sense go from nitrate to an indirect ammonia spike then to nitrite and ultimately nitrate again. This would be where you need a water change you lazy bum lol.

Sent from my Samsung Smartphone using Tapatalk. When I should be doing something more productive.

[Naiad]

Originally Posted by dputt88

I think Niads got it. And i was misunderstanding e quality as well. but....
if your nitrates are reasonable and you add too much live stock at once. You would still first see a rise in ammonia because you never had sufficient bacteria to process the new bioload into nitrate anyways. So wouldnt you still see a spike in ammonia first?

Now if you let your nitrates get out of control and stuff starts dieing cuz of it. The i guess it would be a build up of nitrates leading to a spike in ammonia.

So nitrate will never lead to nitrie then ammonia. But could in a sense go from nitrate to an indirect ammonia spike then to nitrite and ultimately nitrate again. This would be where you need a water change you lazy bum lol.

Sent from my Samsung Smartphone using Tapatalk. When I should be doing something more productive.

Yes if you overstock all at once ammonia will spike. What happens really depends on your maintenance practices and some people that are new to fish keeping may not realize the more livestock you have the more you have to do water changes. For example: as you stock you may go from needing to change water once a month with two fish to every two weeks with five. So it may be good just to get into the habit of doing water changes every two weeks.

[dputt88]

Sorry i shouldnt say never.

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[Babby]

This is all useful information, I think. Thanks for any input.

[E-quality]

Babby, how was the temperature when you got home? Yes, I'm assuming you're home already.

Originally Posted by katymunoz

Lol, I swear I'm not trying to be the antagonist in this conversation, but I don't agree with that. I still think it is the ammonia that spikes first, but it can be converted to nitrate pretty quickly, so unless you happen to test at the beginning of the cycle, you might have missed those stages, leaving only a reading of nitrate. Note: I did say "I think" because I am not 100% sure, but it only makes sense to me that the ammonia would have to be first, since it's not a true "cycle" because it doesn't keep repeating itself, it goes from ammonia to nitrate, and then stops. It's not like the nitrate converts back to ammonia and keeps going... Or you would never be able to get out of it..,... But I could be wrong, and I would sincerely like to know if I am, because I'm always up to learning new things! That's what makes this hobby fun!

The ammonia spikes first in the initial cycle when you first set your tank up. We agree on that. The the cycle, regarless of how old the tank is, goes from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. We both agree on that. I've stated those two things throughout this conversation. Here's what you're missing. I'm saying that nitrate is the first thing to show up and rise in an established tank after the initial cycle. A lot of people that have established tanks see nitrate creep up if they lag on maintenance, overfeed, etc. Rising nitrate is an indication that something is out of whack. Let it go long enough, you might see nitrite at detectable levels. Let things get completely out of hand, you might see ammonia pop up also. That's what I was getting at. You want to watch out for rising nitrate after the initial cycle because that's what indicates something being out of whack.

Take your tank for example. It's established and ammonia or nitrite aren't at detectable levels in your tank. That's because there are plenty of bacteria in your tank uptaking these nutrients. There may not even be nitrate at a detectable level in your tank. But, which of those three nutrients will be at a detectable level first if you slack on maintenance or overfeed? Nitrate. Correct? It was the opposite when you first "cycled" your tank but it's different for tanks that have gone through the initial "cycle" though the nutrients still cycle the same, from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

I hope this helps explain what I was getting at. I didn't mean to confuse anyone.

[Babby]

Ok well I dropped in a second thermometer. Swapped out the Koralia 750s for 425s and also removed the open/close lid on hood. It has been about 7 hours now and its holding at 82 on both thermometers. Light never on. This is no good.

[Naiad]

What is the temp of your house? Do you have a/c? Depending on this there may be a few tricks that will beat buying a chiller.