[locdawgmsu]

I'm looking at doing two 150 w. DE HQI's over my 75, but I was looking for advice on ballasts. The only two I know of are the Blue waves Magnetic ballasts, and the Electronic Ice Cap ballasts. I'm lookin for input on either of those, or any others anyone has had experience with.

 

[krusk]

Light

It seems like you already made up your mind about the lighting.
Why 150W HQI?heat? with 150W HQI you don't have a lot of option on ballast and bulbs.

175W Moguls even have more ballasts and bulbs selection.
250W Moguls and 250W HQI will give you alot of options.

I don't normally recommend 150 HQI to reefer due to low products market shareed (low selection) and they are not so cost effective.

Krusk
[email protected]

 

[stiffljp]

PFO also makes an magnetic ballast or you can DYI it with the correct ansi code.

Electric comes in PFO, blue-line, ARO from Hello-lights and I am sure there are a couple more out there that I missed.

I have the Sunlight supply Blue wave 7 with the reflector, I also have the PFO and ice cap as well. As far as reliablity and ease of installation, I haven't seen a huge difference in any of them. I will say when I replaced my SE 250 65K with 250 HQI I did burn the heck out of some of my corals. Sill mistake.

If you ever plan to upgrade I would get the 250W, but they are more expensive.

 

[scleractinian]

Actually, there are at least a dozen different 10K and 20K 150 DE lamps available. The efficiency and brightness advantage they give are worth the slightly reduced lamp selection, IMHO, and several of the better 150 DE lamps are actually significantly cheaper than most of the more popular 175w SE lamps.

So, less expensive lamps, much higher system efficiency (more light per watt, and less heat), a smaller luminaire or canopy (or run just the pendants) seem like great reasons to go w/ 150 DE.

I like the Giesseman ballasts best for their small and simple enclosure and low operating temp. SLS works well, so does PFO (I like the PFO duals better than SLS). AB (if you were thinking AquaSpaceLight) ballasts (Vossloh, IIRC) tend to be heavy, noisy and quite hot.

PM me if you'd like more specific info and links to (objective) comparisons of 150 DE to other lamp types.

BTW, I'm not selling anything. I'm a reformed (175-400, 10+ years) SE user, and just did my homework before I switched to all T5 and DE.

 

[krusk]

scleractinian

This message is not tended to offen any one, if you feel are you offened, please take a deep breath ... and have a drink.

BTW, I'm not selling anything. I'm a reformed (175-400, 10+ years) SE user, and just did my homework before I switched to all T5 and DE.

Are you running 150 W HQI + T5 on your current tank after 10+ years in the hobby?

It's look like you are a strong believer on 150W HQI.

Are you recommend to some one base on your 10+ years in the hobby that they should/ideally get 150W HQI ? because of

Actually, there are at least a dozen different 10K and 20K 150 DE lamps available. The efficiency and brightness advantage they give are worth the slightly reduced lamp selection, IMHO, and several of the better 150 DE lamps are actually significantly cheaper than most of the more popular 175w SE lamps.

How many dozen of 175W and 250W available in the market?

There is no significant cost different for 150W HQI and 250W HQI.

How many places sell 150W HQI equidment? and cost?
How many places sell 175W Mogul equidments? and cost?
How many places sell 250W HQI/Mogul equidment? and cost?
What are the percentage?

PM me if you'd like more specific info and links to (objective) comparisons of 150 DE to other lamp types.

Is there any links/references that you can provide? please share the well

Krusk
[email protected]

 

[stiffljp]

No offense taken here, but to answer some of your questions:

"There is no significant cost different for 150W HQI and 250W HQI."

Dual HQI 150W vs. Dual 250W is 20 dollars. (Premium Aquatics)
Pretty sure most places will have similar differences.

"How many places sell 150W HQI equidment? and cost?
How many places sell 175W Mogul equidments? and cost?
How many places sell 250W HQI/Mogul equidment? and cost?
What are the percentage?"

I would say that most places online that carry SE now also carry DE. (Premium Aquatics, Custom Aquatics, Champion Lighting, Marine Depot.....etc) I think of the ones listed most carry atleast 2 brands of DE.

With regard to costs, sure 175W SE ballast will be cheaper but there should be little controversy that DE are "higher" end equipment. Sanjay Joshi @ reefcentral (advanced aquarist) has published a couple of studies comparing lights, (great info for anyone running MH) I think you will find that DE have more PAR than most SE. Also, with regard to bulb costs:

SE 175W bulbs range from 40-80
DE 150W bulbs range from 60-80

So if you buying the cheapest (which is perfectly fine) you will save $20 a bulb if you buy middle or higher your savings is reduced.

Also with regard to selection between the 2:

There are atleast 7 DE bulb manufacturers and I could remember 9 SE (there may be more)

Lastly, Pendants are within a couple of dollars of each other, you get screwed regardless what pendant you put up.

I have both SE and DE so I am not taking either side, hopefully the info above helps. Feel free to shoot me a PM if more info is needed, I just changed my lights so I am pretty familiar with both sides.

 

[scleractinian]

This message is not tended to offen any one, if you feel are you offened, please take a deep breath ... and have a drink.

I'll need to take a breath to address all of these...
Think I can do without the drink though. I'm also not trying to offend (but do note that this thread did solicit info specifically on 150 DE), so...

Are you running 150 W HQI + T5 on your current tank after 10+ years in the hobby?

Yes... multiple tanks. I also run T5, and some NO fluoros.

It's look like you are a strong believer on 150W HQI.

Well, I believe strongly that good DE systems have been demonstrated to produce more usable light for less power (resulting in less heat) than any other available lighting system. T5 (again, a well designed system, not just T5's w/ an aluminum foil refelctor) might be a better choice in some applications though.

Are you recommend to some one base on your 10+ years in the hobby that they should/ideally get 150W HQI ?

Nope. But if someone is thinking of going MH, they should at least make an informed comparison. DE MH is, IMHO, the best light source for reef aquaria. Others might place values that are different than mine on the factors that lead me to that conclusion. Some (MoonPod on RC, for example, until he recently went DE) think that glitter lines are distracting, for instance. Others might prefer the flexibility in apparent light color that they can get from arrays of several fluoros.

How many dozen of 175W and 250W available in the market?

I'm not sure. I'm also not sure why anyone would really care, unless they were trying to buy one of each or test to find the best one.

Also, if one were shopping for a car (of which many dozens of makes and models are available) instead of for reef lighting, would they shop for the one that has the greatest market share, or for the one that best meets their needs within their price range? If you could afford either, would you prefer a Boxter or a Beatle?

There is no significant cost different for 150W HQI and 250W HQI.

Agreed, but the poster asked about 150. I do encourage people who believe that they will end up wanting large tanks, "high light" corals and clams to start w/ 250 DE. I would argue that after a couple of years, there's no significant difference in cost per light between 150 DE and 250 SE either though...

How many places sell 150W HQI equidment? and cost?
How many places sell 175W Mogul equidments? and cost?
How many places sell 250W HQI/Mogul equidment? and cost?
What are the percentage?

Again, I'm not sure exactly, but enough (dozens of vendors, including all of the major online reef stores), and don't see how it's relevant. Certainly many times more places than sell T5.

How many places sell SeaClones, as compared to Euro-Reefs?
How many SeaClones are sold in comparison to Euro-Reefs?

Is there any links/references that you can provide? please share the well

To Sanjay's studies, to non-hobby comparisons of the performance of various lighting technologies, to vendors that sell DE systems, etc.?

Krusk, I , again, didn't mean to offend anyone. My "I'm not selling anything" disclaimer was honestly and solely referring to my own objectivity, and was mostly a figure of speech meant to convey that.

 

[krusk]

very informative

Lastly, Pendants are within a couple of dollars of each other, you get screwed regardless what pendant you put up.

stiffljp
can you elaporate more on detail why ppl get screwed?
I have (8) 250 HQI pendants, and I don't know why you said screwed?

"There is no significant cost different for 150W HQI and 250W HQI."
Dual HQI 150W vs. Dual 250W is 20 dollars. (Premium Aquatics)
Pretty sure most places will have similar differences.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but
How much have we put into our tank/hobby? and $20 is significant. Very interesting behavior.

it's not even 1% if someone have a 55G tank. (buy cheap buy twice)

Agreed, but the poster asked about 150. I do encourage people who believe that they will end up wanting large tanks, "high light" corals and clams to start w/ 250 DE. I would argue that after a couple of years, there's no significant difference in cost per light between 150 DE and 250 SE either though...

Yes agreed, would you think it's better to start with 250 HQI seen the thread starter asked about 150 W HQI? seen there is not much different in startup cost.

The starter asked about 150W, that's correct, but would it is more benifical to the starter to know more about 250 HQI?

To Sanjay's studies, to non-hobby comparisons of the performance of various lighting technologies, to vendors that sell DE systems, etc.?

yes, many of us read those artical, looks at the data from 150W HQI and the data from 250W HQI, do we still recommed him to spend his money on 150W HQI? seen we all agreed that the start up cost for 150 HQI and 250 HQI are about the same?

I , again, didn't mean to offend anyone. My "I'm not selling anything" disclaimer was honestly and solely referring to my own objectivity, and was mostly a figure of speech meant to convey that

we're valued your opinion,
I do not think anyone on thread try to sell anything.
Just a informative thread for other to have more explore to different kind/type of lighting in home aquaria.

Krusk
[email protected]

 

[stiffljp]

Krusk,

More than happy to elaborate, I have pendants for all mine as well DE and SE (6 total) Very good product and I would recommned them to others, it is just my personal grudge for paying $100.

As far as the second comment, I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were saying the cost between 150W and 250W was significant and was an issue. I completely agree $20 is a drop in the hat for this hobby.

 

[scleractinian]

I do apologize Krusk. I misunderstood.

From your post, it appeared to me that you were recommending 175 SE because that lamp type currently has a larger market share. I had no idea that you meant that 250 DE might be better than 150 DE. I would agree in many cases.

I do think that 150 DE is often (probably in most cases) enough for almost any animal that we keep, especially in tanks 24" or shallower. I believe this because a good 150DE system (SLS or new PFO pendant) with a lamp such as an SLI AquaArc 10K will deliver much more light (PAR) to the tank bottom than most 10K 250SE, and probably more than some 400 SE systems I've seen in use (those w/ no real reflector).

Many people don't realize that wattage consumed isn't a good indicator of light delivered, especially when comparing different types of systems, and especially when comparing one w/o a reflector to one w/ a well-designed reflector. (Newbies, or those contemplating a lighting purchase, please read the previousl sentence again, and PM me if you'd like me to explain further)

So, in a nutshell, I believe that one should pick the system that will provide all of the light that the think that they'll ever need, and start with that system. It really is possible to have more light than that which is usable in areas of brightly lit tanks. In some situations, that excessive light might actually make corals LESS colorful.

For most of my systems, 150 DE is enough, and saves on power and heat. I have used 250 DE, and still do use it (AB 10K in a RO3+) on one tank. I would not hesitate to recommend 250 DE to those with corals that have extreme light demands, or to those with deep tanks and clams or corals acclimated to light conditions found at above 5m.

That said, I also use a 4x54 TekLight on a 55, 6x39 (4 of them are starcoats on an IC 660) on a 58, and will use supplemental (Blue+) T5 on my next tank.

 

[scleractinian]

Whoops... I also find $20 relatively insignificant, and feel that $110 for the available DE pendants seems a bit expensive.

 

[locdawgmsu]

Thank you very much for all the information...

as for me leaning toward 150 DE over 250 DE, that is for two or three main reasons. Along with the MH, I am going to run actinics off of an ice cap 660(either VHO or T-5), as I currently have 4-36" VHO over a 38 gallon tank. Also, the 75(48Lx18Dx22H?) is not very deep at 22", and even though I have clams, I also want to be able to keep LPS without cooking them, which I think would be a very likely possibility with 250 DEs. My clams (2 crocea, 2 maxima,1 derasa,1 hippopus) have been doing very well, including the largest crocea which I have had since december or so.

Please let me know if my reasoning is flawed. Again, thank you for the expedience of delivery of info.

Oh yeah, I don't really plan on doing an upgrade from the 75 as I have atleast a year and a half left of school, and who knows where I'll be then.

 

[joedelt]

for the money, i'd use the 250's. if you look at the research that Sanjay Joshi did at ReefCentral, you'll find that the best overall solution is a 250W DE setup using standard magnetic ballasts. I am at present using a 250W DE setup from Sunlight Supply (same setup preuss has hanging over their tanks now) and really like it. its the only light i'm using. the operating cost difference is neglegable, and the availability of multiple bulb types is a plus.

I have mine running in an enclosed canopy, and have no heat issues at all with 2 computer fans running.

/john