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Best price for DIY Ca/Alk supplementation

2K views 25 replies 14 participants last post by  MCsaxmaster 
#1 ·
Hello all,

I use the Holmes-Farley 2-part Ca/Alk method, and am looking for the most reasonably priced source is for the Calcium chloride and Magnesium sulfate components. So, where do you get yours and how much does it cost you? Please include quantity as well as shipping/handling costs (if applicable).

Thanks,
Tom
 
#5 ·
labman said:
A New sponsor here http://www.gettankedaquariums.com/ higher purity Calcium Chloride the bulk reef supply and lower price we are also doing a group buy hoping to finish it soon to save on shipping
Nice! I like the idea of higher purity. Not low enough to order just yet...so I'll pass on the group buy (this time).

Thanks for the responses so far...anyone else have a supplier they'd like to share?
 
#8 ·
hopkins said:
Its all the same High Purity Calcium Chloride in different packages.
Read your labels!

Not all Calcium Chloride are all equal, they may look the same.

Here is just one good example.

The last time I looked on the back of Kent Turbo Calcium label it states that its calcium purity is (Min) thirty something % and (Max) forty something %.

I forget the exact numbers, if someone has an old labeled Kent Turbo Calcium please verify, I just noticed that they have a new look for their Turbo Calcium
and have not read that label yet.

Saltwater Correct Calcium Chloride label states that the calcium purity is (Min) 94% (Max) 97%.

Saltwater Correct Calcium is about half the price.

Now are they really the same?

Garry
 
#9 ·
Tom@HaslettMI said:
Nice! I like the idea of higher purity. Not low enough to order just yet...so I'll pass on the group buy (this time).

Thanks for the responses so far...anyone else have a supplier they'd like to share?
Used Bulk Reef Supply with no probelms and seem to also carry High Purity also. If you become a preffered member there is a slight price break. Just my 2 cents.
 
#11 ·
thstorms said:
I was able to find Dow Flake at a local hardware store. seems to be pretty comon at hardware, home supply, and pool stores, but I cant find anyone that has Mag Flake. The Dow is $16.95 for a 50# bag. thats like 6mo worth of calcium!!!
That's a good deal!

This thread has been very helpful and educational (especially the purity of the chemicals). I never really though too much about purity. I assuming the more pure the better (30-40% for Turbo Ca seems pretty "dirty"). When choosing a CaCl is there a minimum purity that I should look for?

Thanks,
Tom
 
#12 ·
gettanked said:
Read your labels!

Not all Calcium Chloride are all equal, they may look the same.

Here is just one good example.

The last time I looked on the back of Kent Turbo Calcium label it states that its calcium purity is (Min) thirty something % and (Max) forty something %.

I forget the exact numbers, if someone has an old labeled Kent Turbo Calcium please verify, I just noticed that they have a new look for their Turbo Calcium
and have not read that label yet.

Saltwater Correct Calcium Chloride label states that the calcium purity is (Min) 94% (Max) 97%.

Saltwater Correct Calcium is about half the price.

Now are they really the same?

Garry
How do you come up with Calcium Chloride purity? Is it a Measurement of water content? Have you been able ot buy from a source in America or is this coming from an European source? What affect did the change in manfucturing that DOW made cause on you product?
 
#13 ·
Calcium Chloride purity is a tough thing to determine from most of the simple labels I've seen.

Ca = MW40.08, Cl = 35.45 x 2 = 70.9. (40.08 + 70.9 = 110.98, this is the molecular weight of CaCl2). So Ca is 36% by weight of Calcium Chloride. This might be where the label info is derived from. The range Kent gives is probably due to the effect of water in the Calcium Chloride, which will vary during packaging etc.

If you had pure calcium it would explode when it came in contact with water! So there is no "pure" calcium out there, at least not any you would want to use!

I'm sure Kent's Turbo is fine. Actually when I dissolve up a few teaspoons of it in RO water, it does warm up a bit! (very exothermic)
 
#16 ·
I use Peladow Ice melt, seems to work great, I buy it at Gordon's Food, the price great! It really heats the RO/DI water! I buy Mag from Bulkreef and I use Arm and Hammer Baking Soda ( I bake it to drive off water) I get that from Costco. If you are using a good salt mix and change 10-15% weekly, more than likely you won't have to add Mag.

Dan
 
#17 ·
the only thing to be careful of

Randy Holmes has recently reported that they are adding some minor chemicals to the different calcium and Mag snow products. supposedly to make the product better but more likely to make the product unusable in the hobby so we would have to explore more expensive options.
 
#18 ·
I've read somewhere that all the American suppliers are not pure enough for reef tanks and due to Dow's change in the manufacturing process most places are buying an European product which the only way to get it and decent price is to by it in large quantities. Wish I can remember where I read that at. Maybe someone else might have some better information.
 
#19 ·
Guys, you can tell absolutely NOTHING about purity from stated percentages of Ca++ like those mentioned above. Calcium chloride (CaCl2) is a fairly hydrophilic salt, meaning that it will readily absorb water into it's lattice structure. For something that says it's ~94% calcium chloride, it'll mostly be CaCl2 (anhydrous), meaning without water in the lattice, and some calcium chloride dihydrate or hexahydrate or some other number of waters included. For something like the turbo calcium they're telling you just the amount of calcium in the salt, instead of the calcium chloride content. Anhydrous CaCl2 has a molecular weight of ~111 g/mol. Calcium has a molecular weight of ~40 g/mol. Hence, pure CaCl2(anhydrous) will be 36% calcium, by weight. If it takes up some water from the atmosphere, the weight of the crystal increases so the percentage of the molecular weight from calcium goes down slightly.

But as I said, none of this tells you a darn thing about the purity of the salt. We are concerned with impurities like ammonia, heavy metals, etc. in the salt that might occur as several parts per million. What's 1 ppm in percentage?--0.0001%. To assess impurity concentration in salts like this it takes something like high resonance mass spectroscopy. If a chemical company (like Dow) is making a bulk chemical like CaCl2 they may simply not test the batch if it is intended to go for cheap uses (like ice melter) since there's no point. They may do this even if they are using the same basic procedure as to produce a high purity salt. However, if they don't need to test the purity (so as to assure purity) there's no point in them going to the trouble or expense.

As mentioned above, most of the CaCl2 we would consider using that are available from various sources are probably of very similar purity. One supplier claiming higher purity than another supplier does not necessarily have a higher purity product.
 
#20 ·
MCsaxmaster said:
Guys, you can tell absolutely NOTHING about purity from stated percentages of Ca++ like those mentioned above. Calcium chloride (CaCl2) is a fairly hydrophilic salt, meaning that it will readily absorb water into it's lattice structure. For something that says it's ~94% calcium chloride, it'll mostly be CaCl2 (anhydrous), meaning without water in the lattice, and some calcium chloride dihydrate or hexahydrate or some other number of waters included. For something like the turbo calcium they're telling you just the amount of calcium in the salt, instead of the calcium chloride content. Anhydrous CaCl2 has a molecular weight of ~111 g/mol. Calcium has a molecular weight of ~40 g/mol. Hence, pure CaCl2(anhydrous) will be 36% calcium, by weight. If it takes up some water from the atmosphere, the weight of the crystal increases so the percentage of the molecular weight from calcium goes down slightly.

But as I said, none of this tells you a darn thing about the purity of the salt. We are concerned with impurities like ammonia, heavy metals, etc. in the salt that might occur as several parts per million. What's 1 ppm in percentage?--0.0001%. To assess impurity concentration in salts like this it takes something like high resonance mass spectroscopy. If a chemical company (like Dow) is making a bulk chemical like CaCl2 they may simply not test the batch if it is intended to go for cheap uses (like ice melter) since there's no point. They may do this even if they are using the same basic procedure as to produce a high purity salt. However, if they don't need to test the purity (so as to assure purity) there's no point in them going to the trouble or expense.

As mentioned above, most of the CaCl2 we would consider using that are available from various sources are probably of very similar purity. One supplier claiming higher purity than another supplier does not necessarily have a higher purity product.
That's exactly what I was told by the guys at Bulk Reef Supply when I asked them. Thanks for the excellent explanation.
 
#21 ·
I started this thread to see if there are better/more affordable DIY 2-part ingredients out there. So, thanks everyone for all of the great info.

MCsaxmaster said:
As mentioned above, most of the CaCl2 we would consider using that are available from various sources are probably of very similar purity. One supplier claiming higher purity than another supplier does not necessarily have a higher purity product.
Good to know. So you're saying Dow and other "more-reasonably-priced" salts are fine to use?

Taylor_made - Thanks for the reply. I'm also using Peladow Ice melt and have been happy with it. I do need to give a warning about using anhydrous Ca: if exposed to air for too long it seems to lose it's potency (Chemistry folks is this right?). I had some in the open bag (for several months) and when I mixed it up no heat was produced. I thought "no big deal" and used it anyway...big mistake! I ended up throwing my Ca/Alk ratio way off (super high alk, Ca in the basement). The rest of the open bag went to is intended use...the sidewalk!
 
#22 ·
Tom,
As already stated, the CaCl2 Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate is produced by a handful of companies throughout the world, then rebagged and rebranded.

I get my DOW Peladow from a local roofing company, but is is also available at Gordons Food Service (GFS), and other stores. I have also found that Sams Club is the cheapest source for bulk NaHCO3 Baking soda.
 
#23 ·
BeakerBob said:
Tom,
As already stated, the CaCl2 Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride Hexahydrate is produced by a handful of companies throughout the world, then rebagged and rebranded.

I get my DOW Peladow from a local roofing company, but is is also available at Gordons Food Service (GFS), and other stores. I have also found that Sams Club is the cheapest source for bulk NaHCO3 Baking soda.
Bob what about the Bromide concerns that was previously posted, anything to that? Should we be concerned with these concentrations?
http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51993
 
#24 ·
I know that there has been some concern expressed by the new formulation, but I have yet to see any real problems. I know of several LFS's that have been using the new batches of DOW CaCl2 (knowingly or unknowingly) and I have not seen any detrimental effects to their tanks or livestock.
 
#25 ·
Here is the study Randy Holmes posts that says the Peladow and all Dow manufactured CaCl should not be used in tanks that are in high demand of calcium because of the Bromide concentrations.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1368072

Our tanks use it in certain macro algaes but not enough if adding it in high concentrations frequently. Just fyi. I had purchased some bags before the change in formulation. And through my search had directly contacted Dow here in Michigan. Its a process that Dow stopped doing to strip the CaCl of the Bromide for all CaCl they make.

I can dig up the email they sent me that shows a bag cipher that tells you if its before Dec 2007 cut off
 
#26 ·
Hi guys,

I should have been more specific above. All of the new CaCl2 from Dow (all of it since ~December of last year, the batch numbers begin with a "V" in the new stuff if I recall) has elevated bromide (Br-) in it. They have changed their manufacturing process and no longer strip the bromide out of it for any of the CaCl2 they now produce. For salt melter, that's irrelevant, but for us it's potentially a big deal.

The new Dow stuff has ~7,000 ppm Br- in it (~280,000 ppm Ca++). Bromide is one of the major ions in sea water (~67.3 ppm @ S = 35 ppt). However, bromide isn't necessarily removed very quickly in aquaria, hence it will build up over time if we are using the new Dow stuff as a calcium supplement.

For example, in a high demand tank a person might lose 40 ppm Ca++ daily. If they use the new Dow to replace that calcium, they'll raise the Br- by 1 ppm. If that Br- is largely accumulating, you can see that pretty quickly a person is going to have very elevated Br- relative to NSW. Assuming no loss of Br-, after 1 month Br- is elevated by nearly 50%, which might be undersirable. For that reason, it's not recommended that the newer formula from Dow (w/elevated Br-) be used as a calcium supplement in reef tanks.

Now, if it's a one-time shot and a person is using a Dow product to, for example, bump the calcium up in their salt mix before use, then it's not too much of a concern. If, for example, a person boosts the Ca++ in their salt mix by 40 ppm (if it's a lower Ca++ salt mix, for example) then they'll boots Br- by 1 ppm, which I don't think is anything to be concerned with. It's the longterm usage and hence potential build-up of high levels of Br- that we're concerned with.

CaCl2 products like those from Kent, ESV, Bulk Reef Supply, etc. are either from Dow but before the change in manufacturing process, or from some other source. Hence, elevated Br- is not a concern with any of these that we would normally consider using. That's what I was referring to above, albeit not as clearly as I should have.

For a one-time or very rare bump in Ca++, the new formula Dow is probably fine. For regular supplementation I'd track down one of the other sources that do not have elevated Br-.

Chris
 
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