[frizman]

I don't know if this is the right place to post, but how do you guys have your GFI's wired? Like what components on each one, lights, skimmer, exc.

The reason I am asking is I recently when ton vacation, and had a tank sitter for just opening the glass top and dumping in the pre measured out food in.

When I came home some how my light controller got wet (which is on the opposite side of the tank from were they were to dump the food), which popped my GFI that runs my lights, filter, and protine skimmer. My reef keeper is on its own and my powerhead and dosing pump are on one. Also they knocked the dry side of my Vortech off.

I lost almost everything and just did a 20 gallon water change to suck all the dead stuff out. The last time this happened i was also on vacation and had a heater go out. So I got the reef keeper to control two heaters incase one goes out again.

So just wondering how everyone else has theirs wired.

 

[on the spot]

...I recently went on vacation, and had a tank sitter
...light controller got wet (which is on the opposite side of the tank from were they were to dump the food)...also they knocked the dry side of my Vortech off...

So just wondering how everyone else has theirs wired.

By the ankles when these sorts of things happen.
Is this sitter family? as in will anyone miss them?

I quit using a GF some time ago - caused weird problems with my older neptune. I've since quit using the neptune. so everything is just always on or in the case of lights mechanical timer. Dedicated circuit though, I'm not a caveman.

Of no use at all,

OTS

 

[frizman]

Yeah my wife's aunt she also watches the dogs too.

I am currently working on a 180 gallon build and want to resolve any issues I have with my 55 on this one. Just kinda sad my clown that I've had ever since I started this hobby 7 years ago didn't make it.

I switched to GFI's when I had a korilla powerhead fail and about lit me up when I went to clean the tank. I also switched to the Vortech at that point.

 

[bestcutter]

I don't know if this is the right place to post, but how do you guys have your GFI's wired? Like what components on each one, lights, skimmer, exc.

The reason I am asking is I recently when ton vacation, and had a tank sitter for just opening the glass top and dumping in the pre measured out food in.

When I came home some how my light controller got wet (which is on the opposite side of the tank from were they were to dump the food), which popped my GFI that runs my lights, filter, and protine skimmer. My reef keeper is on its own and my powerhead and dosing pump are on one. Also they knocked the dry side of my Vortech off.

I lost almost everything and just did a 20 gallon water change to suck all the dead stuff out. The last time this happened i was also on vacation and had a heater go out. So I got the reef keeper to control two heaters incase one goes out again.

So just wondering how everyone else has theirs wired.

frizman,

I would recommend always using a GFCI protected outlet whenever water or moisture is present. The purpose of them is to protect you from being killed, not to protect your clownfish, sad as that is:sad:.

Dennis

 

[bestcutter]

I switched to GFI's when I had a korilla powerhead fail and about lit me up when I went to clean the tank.

Did your powerhead ever fail after installing the GFCI? If a heater or powerhead fails and is electrifying the water I'm not certain the GFCI will protect anything (including you) unless the power is going to ground. It's a "ground fault circuit interrupter". If there's no ground fault it does nothing, to my knowledge.

Dennis

 

[chi]

Agree with using the GFCI when near water. All my equipment is plugged into GFCI outlets that are on the same circuit. So far no issues. Knock on wood.

 

[frizman]

Yeah my house is an older one that does not have the ground wire. So I have three power strips with with the GFI built in. And yeah the korilla triped them also. From what I read on GFI's is they check for any power fluctuations on all three wires.

I know I am not going to not use the GFI's. But seeing the tank crash because of them. I figure maybe I have something wrong. Like having all of the stuff needed for the tank on one.

So this is what I am thinking so far have; one set of lights, one powerhead, and one return pump on one GFI. Then do the same on the other one. That way if it fails it only shuts off half and keeps kinda going. But I don't know if that would be enough to keep everything alive for a week.

I also though possibly seeing if there was anything out there that could possibly monitor the power on one GFI and if it goes out kick on a backup system.

 

[chi]

Do you know if there is a possibility to run things on different circuit. Because even if you have them plugged into different outlets, they could be on the same circuit and depending on how it's wired if one GFCI gets tripped it shuts the rest of the circuit down.

 

[frizman]

Yeah if they are the standard in wall ones then if one tripped then they all will. Or if you can find the first outlet that the breaker box goes to and replace that then all the rest down the line also will trip it.

I could not think of a way to find the order the outlets in my living room are wired with out tearing out my walls. So I went to menards and they have contractor grade surge protector like things that have the GFI built into them. So if one pops there is a second one plugged into the wall right below it. I did this so they would not be considered to be the same circuit. Like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-4-Outlet-6-Feet-Workshop/dp/B002RN13UY

Just looked at my wife's hair dryer and that is only two wire no ground plug.

 

[frizman]

I like the challenge of making something better, and I want my 180 set up easy enough that my wife could figure it out. That way I know whenever I go on vacation it won't be a mess again. So this is I think how I am going to wire it, let me know if you see any problems.

The new 180 gallon tank spot has 4 outlets. So three of them will have the GFCI power strips plugged into them, and one will stay non GFCI. One power strip will run one powerhead on one side of tank, two reefbreader lights and return pump. The other will run the same thing on the other side of the tank with exception of the return pump. The third one will run my reefkeeper that currently is running my two heaters (one for normal operation and other for backup), and my skimmer (shuts it off when my drain bucket fills). The 4th plug non GFCI one I am thinking about making a relay that for some reason my reefkeeper ever looses power will automatically turn it on as an emergency. Each power strip has 4 outlets so this will give me 4 extra spots for things like a sump light.

 

[bestcutter]

Yeah my house is an older one that does not have the ground wire. So I have three power strips with with the GFI built in. And yeah the korilla triped them also. From what I read on GFI's is they check for any power fluctuations on all three wires.

I am not an electrician but I have wired several homes & garages including GFCI's where necessary, 220 volt lines, 3 way switches, 4 way switches etc. and I'm not sure how a power strip with 3 prongs and a GFCI can be plugged into a two-wire outlet and be considered "protected". I could definitely be wrong but I would call an electrician if I were you and ask. I have run separate ground wires in old homes that had two-wire knob & tube wiring in order to provide full protection..

Here is how a GFCI works:

GFCIs are designed to protect against severe electrical shock or electrocution from ground faults. Ground faults occur when the electrical current in an appliance strays outside its normal path, and the human body becomes part of the path through which the electrical current may flow.

To protect equipment from damaging ground faults, Siemens GFCIs continuously monitor the difference in current between the hot and neutral conductors. If the electricity going to an outlet equals the current coming back from the outlet, the GFCI is dormant. If the electricity going to an outlet is greater than 5mA than the current coming back from the outlet, the GFCI will open the circuit to stop of flow of electricity.

Get yourself one of these: Klein Tools GFCI Receptacle Tester-RT210 - The Home Depot

You just plug it in and it tells you your protection and/or lack of it.

Dennis

 

[bestcutter]

Yeah if they are the standard in wall ones then if one tripped then they all will. Or if you can find the first outlet that the breaker box goes to and replace that then all the rest down the line also will trip it.

If the 1st outlet is a GFCI outlet and the rest downstream of it are wired to it then it provides protection to the downstream outlets even if they are normal outlets. No point buying 7 or 8 GFCI outlets when you can buy 1 and have it protect several downstream from it. One problem is if there are too many downstream outlets, then they can sometimes cause the GFCI to trip when there is no ground-fault. In one of my garages I have at least 16 normal outlets downstream of a GFCI outlet and haven't had any problem in 5 years.

P.S. You also get GFCI circuit breakers that install in fusebox and protect everything on that circuit.

Dennis

 

[frizman]

I'm just going off the code books. According to code if you have to replace a 2 prong outlet it has to be a gfi outlet, it can't be a regular 3 prong. Here is a website I found that also has PDFs on how they work. By code it has to have a label with no ground. From what I have found a gfi reads the difference between the hot (black wire) and the neutral wire (white wire).

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfcis-w-o-ground-1593/

So maybe they are wrong I don't know. I have one of those testers somewhere, from when I used to rewire machinery. I'll see what it says.

 

[frizman]

Here is another one on how GFCI's work.

How GFCIs Work

 

[bestcutter]

I'm just going off the code books. According to code if you have to replace a 2 prong outlet it has to be a gfi outlet, it can't be a regular 3 prong. Here is a website I found that also has PDFs on how they work. By code it has to have a label with no ground. From what I have found a gfi reads the difference between the hot (black wire) and the neutral wire (white wire).

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfcis-w-o-ground-1593/

So maybe they are wrong I don't know. I have one of those testers somewhere, from when I used to rewire machinery. I'll see what it says.

I'm sorry for not writing it yesterday but what I meant to also write is that your outlets will still be ungrounded and not as safe as they could be but you definitely sound like you know what you are doing electrically.

If you could run a separate ground wire to the outlets you'll have the GFCI's plugged into it would be great.

Everything I read says you are correct with everything you wrote about replacing the 2 prong outlets with GFCI's as long as you label them as ungrounded.

Good luck.

Dennis

 

[frizman]

No big deal. Yeah I think I would feel much safer with a ground wire, but trying to figure out how to get it through the ceiling over to a brick wall, through the ceiling and down a brick wall. I could not figure out how to do it. My house is brick on the outside and the living room was added on around 10 years after the house was built.

I knew when I stuck my hand in the tank and it hurt like a mother I had to do something. I was very skeptical at first, I personally did not think it would work. But I bought 2 of those power strips, plunged everything in, and as soon as I hit the power the thing popped. So I did the plug and unplug method and found one of the korilla powerhead was to blame.

 

[bestcutter]

I switched to GFI's when I had a korilla powerhead fail and about lit me up when I went to clean the tank.

Yeah my house is an older one that does not have the ground wire. So I have three power strips with with the GFI built in. And yeah the korilla triped them also. From what I read on GFI's is they check for any power fluctuations on all three wires.

I hope you don't mind too much me bringing this up again but something has been bothering me since I first read it.

If you got "lit up" because your powerhead failed and was putting power into the water and then you put your hand in the water the GFCI's will not prevent you from getting electrocuted in this situation, unless you are grounded. If the power is going to ground (through you) then it's not coming back to the GFCI and it will trip, saving your life.

What I do not understand is why the powerhead tripped the GFCI's after you had them plugged into powerstrips with the built-in GFCI's. Strange. The power would not have been going to ground and so should not have tripped the GFCI.

On a semi-unrelated note:

Last winter a friend of mine had a GFCI outlet on the front of her house (outside) and everytime she plugged a timer into it for Christmas lights it would trip off. She thought the GFCI was bad. I told her to try another timer, she did and never had another problem but I still did not know why the GFCI tripped immediately when the other timer was plugged in. There was nothing plugged into it and there should not have been a ground fault unless somehow the timer had one.

Live and learn

Dennis

 

[frizman]

No I don't mind. This is why people created forms to help each other. And I am only self taught on electrical so this is only how I've interpreted what I've read.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but about 3 years ago I was cleaning my tank and had this weird tingle under my fingernails. So I grabbed a volt meter and put the negative I between the stand a carpet, and the positive in the tank. I think I got something around 20v ac, but I can't quite remember since it was a while ago. So I got a titanium gounding probe and put it in the tank and shoved the other end under the stand. I noticed this weekend when I was going though what all I could use for my next build it was still in there.

electricity takes the shortest path to ground, and if I am standing barefoot on a concreat floor with my hand in the water. I am going to be a lot shorter path then if the electricity went through the gfci through 50' of wire through the breaker box and out to a grounding rod. Which if the gfci is only looking at the ground wire would have to make this circuit for it to read it. But it's not it some how looks at the hot and neutral wires figures out the electricity found a path to ground (hence the ground fault), and pops a mini breaker. I looked up gfci breaker and in no way does the ground wire go to it. I attached a pic of the electrical drawing of one.

 

[bestcutter]

No I don't mind. This is why people created forms to help each other. And I am only self taught on electrical so this is only how I've interpreted what I've read.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but about 3 years ago I was cleaning my tank and had this weird tingle under my fingernails. So I grabbed a volt meter and put the negative I between the stand a carpet, and the positive in the tank. I think I got something around 20v ac, but I can't quite remember since it was a while ago. So I got a titanium gounding probe and put it in the tank and shoved the other end under the stand. I noticed this weekend when I was going though what all I could use for my next build it was still in there.

This might explain why your powerhead tripped the GFCI equipped powerstrip. If the power was leaking from the powerhead, through the water, through the tank frame, the stand and then to a concrete floor. This would make a ground fault.

electricity takes the shortest path to ground, and if I am standing barefoot on a concreat floor with my hand in the water. I am going to be a lot shorter path then if the electricity went through the gfci through 50' of wire through the breaker box and out to a grounding rod. Which if the gfci is only looking at the ground wire would have to make this circuit for it to read it. Correct, it's not reading the ground. But it's not it some how looks at the hot and neutral wires figures out the electricity found a path to ground (hence the ground fault), and pops a mini breaker.Correct. I looked up gfci breaker and in no way does the ground wire go to it. I attached a pic of the electrical drawing of one.

frizman,

I just went out in the garage and brought in a 3 pack of GFCI's and they definitely have a ground screw on them. It's a three-prong outlet with a place for a ground plug. I couldn't get your pic to open properly

The ground isn't necessary for the GFCI to work properly though, probably the reason it's allowed by code to replace a two-wire outlet.

All the GFCI does is detects how much power is coming back through the circuit and if it's not almost equal to what's being sent out it trips the breaker.

Thanks for your patience, I am self-taught also and I love a good mystery. I guess I'll never know why my friends light timer tripped everytime she plugged it in to the GFCI outlet. She tossed it in the garbage and used an identical replacement and never had another problem.

Dennis