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2K views 27 replies 11 participants last post by  Preuss Pets 
#1 ·
Ok here's the scenario. I have a system with a total net gallons of about 810, which one tank is 360 net gallons of it. The other tank, fuge, and sump make up the difference.
other than the 360, the rest of the set-up has been running for over 2 years.
the 200 gallon sump has about 200# of live rock and the tank that's running has about 70-100# of live rock and sand. My skimmer is rated for 2000gallons. I have a 200 gallon fuge full of macro and live sand. the whole system runs together giving me the 810 net gallons.
However I can turn each tank off from the filtering system isolating one tank, which I have done to the 360 net tank so the other is using the filtration.

I recently redone the tank that has 360 net gallons. I had taken all the rock out and put in fresh water and cleaned it all off. I DID NOT CLEAN THE SAND. the tank has about 600# a Fiji Pink and about 300# of clean dead rock. I put about 20-30# of live rock it there too with about 6 cups of live sand from the other tank.

So here is the question:

Since the 360 is less than half the total net gallons of the whole system together, if I were to turn my returns on just trickling, say like somewhere around a 100 gallons an hour, with one of the over flows draining directly into the fuge and the other draining into the sump. Do you think I would have any ill effect on the system as a whole?

Do you think the whole system could handle the cycle of that 360 net with that slow of a flow going through and established system?

Right now I have the 360 net ( it's really a 455 gallon tank) full of water with the power heads running with the water no where to go.

will the tank be able to cycle that way without and filtration?

What are your opinions on this matter?
Please not to be rude, but if you don't have a lot of experience I don't want to hear from you there is a lot of money involve here.

the 220 that is running on the filtration system now has corals and fish in it.

Any advise given is just that, I will only take it as advise and not factual so no blame will be given. I have my thoughts and just want to hear what other experienced reefers have to say to see if it matches up with what I think.
 
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#5 ·
With that being the case, I think this is the definitive answer:

there is a lot of money involve here.
Honestly, I wouldn't take that chance this early in the 360's cycle. At 40-45% of your total system volume, I'd feel much more comfortable letting the system cycle on its own. Without also knowing its parameters, you may end up introducing significant amounts of ammonia into your other system. While I think that overall, it would probably be able to handle it without too much negative effect, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself.

If you're going to reintroduce it before the cycle finishes, I'd much rather let it cycle 75% and let the rest of your system bring it the rest of the way - rather than the other way around.
 
#6 ·
I was going to definitely let it go another week and by then I will have the new test kits and see how far along it is. I just didn't know if I should have to wait the whole 30 days. I'm really in NO rush, I just never cycled a tank without filtration before. I would have put and under gravel system in it then pulled out the stand pipes after it cycled, but with the sand I have it would have just made a mess with no benefits.
 
#7 ·
Hey David I think the concern would be that the existing sand that was in it would be holding a ton of bacteria that's all been released now that it is back up and circulating.

I think I would just check the ammonia levels daily and once they are the the descend than you will know you have an good active positive bacteria population in there and that should give you an idea on when it all go back together.

And yeah it's too bad you can't at least get the Skimmer on that because it would help tremendously.
 
#10 ·
Hey David I think the concern would be that the existing sand that was in it would be holding a ton of bacteria that's all been released now that it is back up and circulating.

I think I would just check the ammonia levels daily and once they are the the descend than you will know you have an good active positive bacteria population in there and that should give you an idea on when it all go back together.

And yeah it's too bad you can't at least get the Skimmer on that because it would help tremendously.
Ya Jamey, I wish I had an internal skimmer to throw in there like you said, but of course I sold it...lol

I was thinking the same thing about the descending levels than opening the valves slowly with a massive water change at the same time.
 
#8 ·
I know I dont have as much experience as some but, from what has been said so far. I will have to agree. I wouldn't tie the two systems together until you have a zero reading of ammonia and nitrite. That should give the rock and sand in the 360 a chance to establish a decent amount of bacteria to be effective. That way once you do tie them together, there will be no toxins being introduced into the establish setup. I'm sure there will be some elevated levels of N03 and P04 but, a decent water change on the 360 prior to opening the values should help to reduce that. As well as the sump/ refuge and skimmer. As Jamie mentioned, too bad you can't get the skimmer on the 360 at least for a week or so prior to tying in. At which point, make sure the salinity, Alk, and PH are spot on with the established system. With that much water volume being added, any numbers that are off will drop the ones that are in the established tank to those of the 360.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the recap Jesse,
1) if I waited for the 455 to reach zero on the ammonia and nitrite that would mean the tank is fully cycled
2) there would be no elevation once the two system were tied back together if the parameters were zero
3)" At which point, make sure the salinity, Alk, and PH are spot on with the established system."-----since I would be doing this at the same time with a 200 gallon water change,which is more than 50% of that tanks net volume, the parameters don't fluctuate that much when playing with mass water volume.

Sorry, this wasn't intended to be rude. I do appreciate your response, but looking for experienced reefers with more knowledge than myself to see if this could possibly work like a drip acclimation. hence the slow return rate of 100 gallons an hour or less.
 
#11 ·
I added a 150g frag system to my 260g main system with no issues at all never even caused a mini cycle. I used about 60 lbs of new dead crushed coral on the bottom of the frag system and i fed the new systen around 100g a day to then slowly bumped it up day by day. just my 2 cents. good luck with it.
 
#12 ·
i personally would keep the water running through the new setup. the established system along with the skimmer will reduce the elevated levels being added back, and this will allow the same bacteria strands from your existing water to enter the newer one. but i would run much, much lower gph than you suggested.
 
#14 ·
Yes after I re-read the 100 gph and thought about it that would have drained that tank in about 3 hours. I have the returns on gate valves so I could just barely crack them open to just over a drip to a slow stream. that was really what I was thinking, just wrote it wrong.

Thanks to the man that sold me my first tank and made an addict for life...lol
 
#18 ·
Lela has been pretty good about all this...I just have to sell before I add, she doesn't like all the "Extra equipment" laying around....lol

I just wish I could get rid of my 60" light fixture so I can put MP40's on her tank :)
 
#19 ·
Dave,

I kind of remember following your build thread, but please correct me if I have you confused with someone else :)

If I remember right, don't you have a large seahorse tank hooked up to this system? I would be leery about messing up the parameters of your other tanks, especially if they are "downwind" of the big tank.

That being said, I think your biggest risk is long past gone. Since you didn't swap out the sand and probably mixed it up taking out the rock etc, you probably mixed up any anaerobic pockets that had formed. I believe those release nitrous oxide into the water, and can be devastating to any livestock in the tank. However, since you removed everything I think you should be safe. However, the detritus left in your sand will quickly reset those anaerobic pockets and denitrifying bacteria will again begin to flourish deep in your sand bed. If you disturb the sand again, you risk reopening a pocket...

I would strongly suggest testing your water first. See where you are at in your cycle, and if need be dose some microbacter7 to get the ball rolling... You should be safe to get the entire system up and running again in a week or two. But test just to be sure.

For all we know, your system could be ready now... but without testing, you'd be gambling. And I don't know about you, but those aren't the kind of odds I like to bet against.
 
#20 ·
Derek,

Yes that was my thread, but when I took down my tank I sold all my seahorses so I could put all my expensive fish in that tank and got rid of the common fish.

the 455 was down for about 3 months and the dand was totally dry, and yes putting in those new back drops I made the sand was literally mounded from one side of the tank to the other.

so your right there is NO pockets.

And no I wasn't going to do anything before the new test kits that I just ordered arrived. I didn't even want to use the old ones that I have laying around. I guess I could have taken a water sample up to the LFS though, but somethings you just want to test yourself, ya know?
 
#22 ·
And no I wasn't going to do anything before the new test kits that I just ordered arrived. I didn't even want to use the old ones that I have laying around. I guess I could have taken a water sample up to the LFS though, but somethings you just want to test yourself, ya know?
I know exactly what you mean, unfortunately we don't have a solid LFS to go to in my area. The one place I have sent many of my reefer friends came back to bite me in the butt, they had been selling 60+ppm r/o water for months... If you can't handle a TDS meter in fresh r/o water, I'm sure not going to trust you with real chemistry in saltwater!

It's good to get second opinions though, I recently switched calcium test kits from my salifert test kit (a real pain) to a new hanna checker. I always liked to maintain around ~440-480, so when I check it with the hanna, and it came out 590 I was floored! That's a huge difference! If I had a 100pt difference in my nitrates, I would have thousands of dollars down the drain... litterally :butcher:

So my advice is still this, Test, Test, and ReTest... then take it to two local LFSs if you have any good ones, and ask them to do a test. Once your are confident your tank has sufficiently cycled, begin to open up the flood gates and let the fun begin :)

Happy Reefing my friend, and I can't wait to see the updates!
 
#21 ·
I have been around awhile. I dont claim to be a reef genius or expert. I recently took down my 75g display tank and replaced it with a 120g. I have a basement sump system of over 200g which the 75 was tied into. I used all dry rock (brs type) and new sand in the 120. I set the 120 up got the water to temp and tied it into the system 2 days later at full flow. The 120 cycled lightly, but did cycle, ammonia, nitrite all of it, very low numbers though. The basement sump system didnt fluctuate at all. Different readings same test kit. While talking to a reefer who has been around alot longer then me he related a story simular to mine in adding a frag tank. Frag tank cycled rest of the system didnt. Now maybe the filtration/bacterial population of the main system was able to handle the increase in ammonia and properly convert it without incident. With the sand being used and possible nutrients/dead and dying organisms still there I personally would wait it out. Then slowly tie them together as you suggested over the course of two to three days. If you had used all new sand I'd say tie it in but as it stands i'd wait it out for a couple weeks. When you start to tie them together i'd test daily in the main system.

BTW I am still having some new tank syndrome in the 120 :wacko: Been up since august 18th.
Good luck that is one impressive tank!
 
#23 ·
I agree that the sticking point here is the old sand, and if it were in my tank I would let the new tank cycle all the way before opening it up to the rest of the system.

You said that you have some expensive fish in the other half of the system, and I just personally wouldn't take a chance with that kind of livestock. IME expensive often means delicate as well, so any little spike could cause major problems with your current livestock.

I would pull a few rocks from the sump and place them in the the 360 in order to help establish good bacterial populations, then throw some shrimp in and let it cycle just like it was a new tank getting set up independently. I may be overly cautious, but I have taken a chance and got burned before and there is nothing worse than the feeling of "You idiot, you knew better than that" that follows if it doesn't work as planned.
 
#24 ·
I'm at work right now, but looked at the tracking# and the test kits I ordered were delivered this morning, so we'll see where I'm at. The plan was to let the tank fully cycle. I did put some live rock from the sump in the tank with an ice tray cube of the fish food I make in there to help.

can't wait ti get out of here and see what the levels are.
 
#25 ·
Ok, got home and tested my tank.... Ammonia is undetectable and Nitrates are below 10 ph is 8.3...

I figure doing a 100 gallon water change will drop the Nitrates and them I'm cracking the valves ( still slow 100 gallons a day slow) and let this go for the week, then I'll do a whole system 20% water change and start putting my fish into the tank. :)
 
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