[Josh]

What's up people. I've been reading the countless posts on skimmers, and gathering peoples different thoughts on the subject. But, I want to get right down to it...my tank! I'm shelling out $850 month for this beautiful apartment, and the largest tank i can have is my 10 gallon. and you better believe it's saltwater! I've had it up for about a year now, and so far so good. I would've put other creatures in there, but i was told i couldn't without a skimmer, and i haven't found one even close to a 10 gal. Some have said that skimmers aren't needed at all, others quite the opposite. So, i want to know what you guys think for my tank. can i have live rock, snails, shrimp, (yes, i fully understand tank capacity, these are just suggestions), etc.

Thanks for your help guys!

 

[Jimbob]

the skimmer will mostly make a difference on the corals you can keep. Certain corals will do very poorly if they are in a tank that is skimmed. Other corals do better if they are in a tank that is skimmed. They types of creatures you want to keep can drive your decision. I personally use a skimmer, albeit a slightly undersized one for my tank. Others do not use any skimmer at all and have absolutely gorgeous reef set-ups. Check out the following link
http//reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/totm/index.htm
This tank belongs to a member of this board and he does not use very much for a skimmer at all and he's been doing this for about 9 years on this system. Therefore, you can clearly see that a skimmer is not an absolute NEED.

 

[Josh]

Having seen all that (and being in complete aw), what specifics could i start with, just to test it out? And if i discover that I do in fact need an occasional skimming, any recommendations?

Thanks Again,

Josh

 

[Jimbob]

I like my Aqua-C Remora a ton, but it's a bit overkill for your tank. You'd prolly get by on a 10G just fine with a Prism (about $70 at Big Al's online). You would also do very well with a BakPak skimmer if you decide you need one.

 

[Clayton]

One significant difference in running your tank without a skimmer would be the way the tank handles the nutrient input. If you feed any frozen foods or have more than one fish in that tank with no skimmer, you better believe you're going to have some algae headaches. If anything, I might be inclined to try a BakPak. I wouldn't do a Prizm. I don't care how big the tank is. I just keep running into people who aren't getting results from them. My only concern with the BakPak would be to make sure that it would fit on the tank. I should measure mine and double check to be sure that it isn't too tall to fit on a ten.

If all you want to do is corals (with maybe one fish) and some inverts, don't lose any sleep over not having a skimmer. If you want to keep more than one small fish, you really would benefit from a skimmer in a big way.

-Clayton

 

[Josh]

Thanks for the input, Clay. BTY, I currently have 3 fish in the tank (and maintain excellent water quality). They are1 Percula clown, 1 purple dottyback, and 1 Springer Dottyback. with that already full population, I wouldn't plan to add much at all. Perhaps just a little coral and a couple of 'inverts'. I still need to do a lot of research on coral and such before knowing what i would like in my tank, what i can have in my tank.

also, you mentioned something about feeding frozen foods. What impact does that have versus live or freze-dried food?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Jimbob]

Again, it primarily depends on what corals you want. The corals are generally more sensitive to skimmer/no skimmer choices. Also, if you plan on adding a tree sponge, or sea fan (or similar filter feeder) you will likely starve it to death if you use a skimmer. Eric Borneman has written much about over-skimming tanks with sponges or fans in them. I don't recommend either coral for a beginner at all and really would like it better if most of these creatures stayed in the sea... they do not propagate well and the success rate with such animals is very low. Most recently, Borneman did a blip on it in his third installment of the "myths" of the aquarium industry. The link is here http//www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.htm and it is myth #17 for those who care to take a peek. Again, decide what you want to keep and make your decision appropriately.

 

[Clayton]

While I totally understand the concepts that Jimbob is referring to, I don't think they're the most relevant aspects for your tank. Based on my own experiences, the most significant issue for you with regards to skimming is algae control. When the topic of over-skimming comes up, I believe that it's more in the context of large tanks with sumps that have the latest and greatest skimmers on them with a low fish load. A BakPak or a Remora on a tank with a heavy fish load is just not going to overskim....ever. The only common coral that I can imagine being affected negatively by adding a skimmer would be maybe xenia. Xenia really enjoy heavy organics. Other than that, most corals would strongly benefit from the level of skimming that we're talking about.

I definitely agree that any filter feeders most certainly do not belong in ANY tank of this size. If you want to do anything that's a filter feeder, it would need to be in a large enough tank where the reproductive capabilities of the micro-fauna or phytoplankton can keep up with organism in question. Sure, you can feed phytoplankton or zooplankton in a small tank and keep the food concentrated, but then you're also going to be concentrating nutrients like crazy and now you have a different problem all together.

You have two dottybacks and a clown? That's a positively massive load for that tank. Even if you're doing a lot of water changes, you'll see an improvement by adding a skimmer.

The reason why I mentioned frozen is that it contributes nutrients that are much more likely to encourage algae growth than most live, flake, pellet, or freeze-dried foods. It's like fertilizer. I'm not absolutely sure what specifically it is that does this, but I suspect that it's a high phosphate content. I've seen it happen countless times.

-Clayton

 

[shermlock]

I love my bakpak on my 10 gallon nano.
Scott

 

[Clayton]

Scott, it fits on your ten gallon just fine? I haven't really thought about it too hard, but I have a ten gallon in my mind as being reasonably short. How much clearance is there between the bottom of the skimmer and the table the tank is sitting on? I assume this is a standard, ten by twenty tank?

-Clayton

 

[Josh]

The tank itself is actually 12X20, but the stand is flush with the tank. Hey Scott, where did you get your BakPak and how much was it? Also, I wanted to see what you guys thought of my filter...It's a Peguin Bio-Wheel Mini which filters 100gph. Good enough?

As far as what will be going into the tank, I would only want a couple of small attractive corals. But the main reason I always wanted a skimmer was because I have seen some very attractive snails and inverts that i would like to have in the tank.

 

[hjmtv]

Josh, My $.02 is that skimming is a reactant of bioload. I have a 75g that has a good bioload and that I feed heavily that I skim 24/7. I have a 10g with 2 clowns that I feed lightly that I just run a bio-wheel. (I'm almost embarrased to say that!!) I have to be more diligent with maintanance on the 10g or things get away quickly but I am not positive this is directly related to no skimming. It is understood that the larger of body of water, the more stable that body of water will be, therefore the 10g takes more work. (especially without the skimmer) If you want low maint., get a skimmer but if you don't mind spending 5~10 min every other day on your tank, the skimmer is not mandatory. Good luck.

 

[Jimbob]

quote

Originally posted by Clayton

The only common coral that I can imagine being affected negatively by adding a skimmer would be maybe xenia. Xenia really enjoy heavy organics. Other than that, most corals would strongly benefit from the level of skimming that we're talking about.

-Clayton

</blockquote id="quote">

Clayton - the tree sponges and gorgonians that I mentioned earlier will be negatively affected by skimming as it generally leads to the starvation of the animal. I'm pretty sure Rick would support me on this, but I could be wrong (been wrong plenty of times before [D]). Also, Fenner, Calfo, and Borneman have written much about the affects of using skimmers on systems that house these animals. Just throwing my $0.02 in on skimming and these animals in general.

Also, given that xenia are nearly 100% an aposymbiotic feeder, relying entirely on their zooxanthellae, I would have to disagree that they enjoy heavy organics as it would provide no benefit to them. Contrarily, Borneman and Calfo (et al) state that impeccable water quality is imperative to the long-term success and health of these animals. I have seen no information in any texts that eludes to xenia prefering heavy organics... I would, however, like to study such information if it is available, so if you can lead me in the direction af said material, I would be most appreciative.[-graduate]

I tend to agree with you on your other points regarding size of tank for filter feeders, bio-load, and use of frozen foods. So long as gorgo's and tree sponges are avoided, skim away! the more the better. [-bonc01]

 

[Clayton]

To be honest, I don't remember specifically where I heard that about the xenia, but I'll dig around. I didn't mean to imply that the xenia would actually eat the stuff. If I remember correctly, they absorb it directly from the water. I know that they don't have any type of gastro-intestinal track. I can tell you for sure that, in my experience, xenia either do really, really well in a tank or they are awful. A common thread in tanks where they don't do well is a lack of disolved organics. That's just my personal experience (including doing professional aquarium maintenance forty hours per week).

I didn't include tree sponges or gorgonians in my consideration of which corals would be negatively affected for two reasons. One, I don't consider them to be all that common (among successful aquarists) and two, I don't think they'd survive in that tank well under any circumstances. If you'll allow me that, then whether they're negatively affected by a skimmer or not is pretty irrelevant.

If you want to just talk about those filter feeders in general, they could be affected by skimming. Really efficient protein skimming will remove a certain amount of plankton. I would suggest combatting this by using a large refugium and having the skimmer before the refugium. As in, overflow, to a skimmer chamber, to refugium, to return pump. No, that's not perfect, but I think it's the best compromise. It allows you to maintain a healthy planktonic population while also maintaining good water quality.

-Clayton

 

[mhltcob]

as for sources for the xenia, i know that at least gregory shiemer states xenia being negatively impacted by overskimming. In the wild xenia can be found in some pretty nutrient rich areas. I believe anthony calfo has wrote hes even seen some species growing next to sewage discharges.
On the topic of gorgonians, the problem with not skimming aggressively that they are very susceptable to being overtaken by filamentous algae. Its very hard to balance having enough food sources for feeding yet not enough to cause algae problems. For the most part only the photosynthetic species should be taken out of the ocean as they are the only ones not needing an almost continuous source of food. Finding a photosynthetic sea fan is near impossible now a days with all the regulation. Fortunatily i managed to scavange one up off the florida ricordia rocks that came in that is doing well. Most sponges that are imported are a waste of money to buy anyway, as they will most likely die of mishandleing if not from starvation down the line.

 

[Clayton]

That's exactly the type of stuff that I was thinking of. I almost mentioned that thing about the sewer lines. I'm not sure that I heard it from Calfo, but I'm a big fan of his and travel in some of the same circles that he's in. I may have heard it from one of his friends.

Also, I just cracked open my copy of Borneman's Aquarium Corals. On page 145, it reads, "The basis of the pumping is likely related to their heavy dependance on dissolved organic material for nutrition, supplemental to a strong dependence on their zooxanthellae."

Also, I don't mean to pick on you at all, but I just wanted to point out that "aposymbiotic" actually means that they would *lack* zooxanthellae, like Dendronepthyas.

-Clayton

 

[mhltcob]

where did i say otherwise?

 

[Jimbob]

no worries mhltcob... he was pointing out my error, not yours [-blindfold] Thank you for pointing out my error Clayton![D]

Clayton... thank you for the reference out of the Borneman text. I will definitely look into that (I don't currently own that text). I do know that in the most recent published articles from Borneman, he eludes to the fact that it is "believed" that if xenia benefit from anything in the water column at all, it would be through absorption.

Obviously I will give you the fact that gorgo's and tree sponges would not do well in that tank... per my earlier post, I indicated that I would be most happy if they were just left to the sea! [o)] Just wanted to point out the tendency toward starvation.

Also, just out of curiosity... what hours do you work at the store? I am going to be making a trip out there in the next couple of weeks and I don't believe I've met you before, so figured I'd try and find you if you're in.

Thanks again for all of the feedback... I love to learn![-cyclops]

 

[mhltcob]

got you, i thought clayton misread my post as it was 1245 and was going to mess with him. I dont think he knows who this is. haha.

 

[Clayton]

I have no idea who you are, but I'm sure I deserve your abuse, mhltcob. )

My days off are Thursday and Saturday and I tend to work in the evenings, say noon to close. I've only back working in the store for a couple of months now. I was working full-time on a maintenance route before that. Technically, I don't work in saltwater, though I do spend a lot of time there. My official title is "Dry Goods Guy." )

Look forward to meeting you,
Clayton