Hey, well im already starting to plan for the future tank, even though it wont be happening for at least a year, but i wanted to start researching surge devices. I definity want to set one up on the next tank. Does anyone happen to have any good links that talk about them, or good forums on rc that talk about them. Or is there anyone else on our site that has used one or uses one?
Starting to research surge devices
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Mike (AKA Neo, not sure which he prefers now....!!) would be the one to talk to here. He had a surge device setup in his old tank, and it worked great! If there are any links or topics floating about the web, I'm sure he'd know what they were and where to find them as well.
Hi,
I have had quite a few surge tanks on some of my old tanks. I no longer use them. A word of advice; I would reccomend not using the carlson surge devices. You should use the ones that incorporate the float plugs....can't remember the name. Anyways, in my expierance, the carlson surge tank designs can turn into a disaster if the air purge holes and output tubing isn't exactly positioned with the water level. In other words, if your water level in your tank gets low, your surge may not empty, but overflow, and will then drain your tank. if you are going to use a surge device, you must remember that it takes water from your tank and holds it temporarly in the surge tank, thus lowering the water level in the main tank. You should therefore make the lip of your tank (the trim that lines the top and bottom) large enough so you never see the water level. I'm holding off on the surge tanks, and currently using a SCWD. I plan on buying Tunze's new wave machine when released in the fall, which will provide much better results than a surge devise. A SD (surge device) will create many microbubbles when it releases the water, and these bubbles can sometimes get stuck inder the edges of soft corals (like a toadstool leather) causing them to bleach in little spots all over. The other disadvantage to the SD is that it will only create current every once in a while. You can make it so it flows frequently, but than you will have frequent doses of unattrative microbubbles spit in your tank. If it flows less often, say once a minute, the water will than be stagnant, and your corals will not wave their tantacles in the water, nor will you get those beautiful rippleing shawdows known as the browning effect. All in all, surge devices are very, very fun to make and experiment with, however they make lots of noise (another consideration), and if used as they should be (quick cycles) than lots of microbubbles will get into the tank. I went to the IMAC in june, and was impressed by the Tunze wave machine...i'll post back when I find out what it was called... It really made the corals wave like they were in the ocean, and even put ripples in the aragonite, like you see on the ocean floor. Good Luck! (BTW, surge tanks are very handy for coral prop tanks!)
I have had quite a few surge tanks on some of my old tanks. I no longer use them. A word of advice; I would reccomend not using the carlson surge devices. You should use the ones that incorporate the float plugs....can't remember the name. Anyways, in my expierance, the carlson surge tank designs can turn into a disaster if the air purge holes and output tubing isn't exactly positioned with the water level. In other words, if your water level in your tank gets low, your surge may not empty, but overflow, and will then drain your tank. if you are going to use a surge device, you must remember that it takes water from your tank and holds it temporarly in the surge tank, thus lowering the water level in the main tank. You should therefore make the lip of your tank (the trim that lines the top and bottom) large enough so you never see the water level. I'm holding off on the surge tanks, and currently using a SCWD. I plan on buying Tunze's new wave machine when released in the fall, which will provide much better results than a surge devise. A SD (surge device) will create many microbubbles when it releases the water, and these bubbles can sometimes get stuck inder the edges of soft corals (like a toadstool leather) causing them to bleach in little spots all over. The other disadvantage to the SD is that it will only create current every once in a while. You can make it so it flows frequently, but than you will have frequent doses of unattrative microbubbles spit in your tank. If it flows less often, say once a minute, the water will than be stagnant, and your corals will not wave their tantacles in the water, nor will you get those beautiful rippleing shawdows known as the browning effect. All in all, surge devices are very, very fun to make and experiment with, however they make lots of noise (another consideration), and if used as they should be (quick cycles) than lots of microbubbles will get into the tank. I went to the IMAC in june, and was impressed by the Tunze wave machine...i'll post back when I find out what it was called... It really made the corals wave like they were in the ocean, and even put ripples in the aragonite, like you see on the ocean floor. Good Luck! (BTW, surge tanks are very handy for coral prop tanks!)
Thanks for all the advice, If you happen to have pics of any of your eariler surges id be curious to see.
I was thinking though as long as you have a pretty large sump, and you take your notches alittle further down like to 1 1/2, you could avoid your tank running dry. My only concern with that is if i were to lower my overflow notches would i also lower my water level in my main tank?
Micro bubbles would probably be one of my biggest concerns, but i had read about a couple of reefers who came up with simple devices to cut down on the bubbles. I may have to look closer into that as the new tank draws closer. I had planned on using the float plugged one, but also saw people who had a extra overflow pipe at the top just in case the plug wouldnt come up.
That wouldnt be my only source of circulation, i also plan on putting in some tunzes and even some maxi's on a wavemaker for more circulation.
I did see a short video of the new tunze wavebox device, it does look pretty sweet. But i wonder what kind of overflow you would have to use to keep up with it? I heard its only going to be around 500 which shouldnt be that bad.
But the more i learn about it, the more i want to throw one on my 75 right now, to start learning from my mistakes. Did you ever try it on a smaller like a 75?
I was thinking though as long as you have a pretty large sump, and you take your notches alittle further down like to 1 1/2, you could avoid your tank running dry. My only concern with that is if i were to lower my overflow notches would i also lower my water level in my main tank?
Micro bubbles would probably be one of my biggest concerns, but i had read about a couple of reefers who came up with simple devices to cut down on the bubbles. I may have to look closer into that as the new tank draws closer. I had planned on using the float plugged one, but also saw people who had a extra overflow pipe at the top just in case the plug wouldnt come up.
That wouldnt be my only source of circulation, i also plan on putting in some tunzes and even some maxi's on a wavemaker for more circulation.
I did see a short video of the new tunze wavebox device, it does look pretty sweet. But i wonder what kind of overflow you would have to use to keep up with it? I heard its only going to be around 500 which shouldnt be that bad.
But the more i learn about it, the more i want to throw one on my 75 right now, to start learning from my mistakes. Did you ever try it on a smaller like a 75?
Hi,
surprizingly, I never took any pics of my surge devices. And yes, if you lower your overflow box, your water level will decrease. None of the tanks that I had surge devices on used overflow boxes, they simply had siphon lines to the filter. I always used a surge device for the intent to rid my tank of bulky powerheads and pumps... As far as the new tunze wavebox, the demo I saw made use of a normal overflow box, and t worked fine. I'm not sure if it had something special on it though... I used a 5 gallon carlson SD on a 50 gallon reef, and it worked fine, so I'd imagine it would be fine on a 75 gallon. I would reccomend testing it out on your current tank before you make plans for your new one. This way your new one will be perfect. (hopefully.)
surprizingly, I never took any pics of my surge devices. And yes, if you lower your overflow box, your water level will decrease. None of the tanks that I had surge devices on used overflow boxes, they simply had siphon lines to the filter. I always used a surge device for the intent to rid my tank of bulky powerheads and pumps... As far as the new tunze wavebox, the demo I saw made use of a normal overflow box, and t worked fine. I'm not sure if it had something special on it though... I used a 5 gallon carlson SD on a 50 gallon reef, and it worked fine, so I'd imagine it would be fine on a 75 gallon. I would reccomend testing it out on your current tank before you make plans for your new one. This way your new one will be perfect. (hopefully.)
Never had an over flow problem with the old surge device.
The way I did it was to take a rubbermaid container that was actually made to store file (it fit the space) and drilled out a hole in the bottom with a hole saw. the size depends on the toilet flush valve you used. I used the fluidmaster bullseye flapper 507A and then modified it with a V notch in the top of the pipe to assist with complete emptying. Plumbed it with 1.5 inch PVC elbow to get the back pressure needed to pop it open.
If you have aquarium corals by borneman its on page 341
I drilled mine from teh bottom but I suppose you can do it this way to. I did not have teh room to do it this way.
Micro bubbles were an issue but the flow was superior and more natural than most other methods.
When I move again and buy another custom tank I will likely do this again. The tank will be in wall in my basement (a wide tank) and I will have lots of room for it.
The way I did it was to take a rubbermaid container that was actually made to store file (it fit the space) and drilled out a hole in the bottom with a hole saw. the size depends on the toilet flush valve you used. I used the fluidmaster bullseye flapper 507A and then modified it with a V notch in the top of the pipe to assist with complete emptying. Plumbed it with 1.5 inch PVC elbow to get the back pressure needed to pop it open.
If you have aquarium corals by borneman its on page 341
I drilled mine from teh bottom but I suppose you can do it this way to. I did not have teh room to do it this way.
Micro bubbles were an issue but the flow was superior and more natural than most other methods.
When I move again and buy another custom tank I will likely do this again. The tank will be in wall in my basement (a wide tank) and I will have lots of room for it.
James you may have to tell me how it goes it you end up getting one, but it seems like in the video, everytime the "wave" would move to the other side the water level would go down 2 or 3". Did it look like that at imac? That what really didnt seem to make sense unless your overflow was about 4 or 5 inches down or located near the middle.
Mike, thanks for the reply. When i saw your surge thats what actually made me want to put one on my tank. But maybe i just remembered it wrong, i thought you used 5 gal acrylic tank...
I you dont mind i did have a couple a questions, since i really wasnt paying as much attention to the equipment as i was to the livestock
Did you have to all modify your overflow slots so the water would lower too much in your 180?
Do you think you could have gone any bigger w/o worrying about that same problem?
At first i was considering putting the surge box in my canopy, but then i realized how much it would shade the side it was on. Did you just have no corals under the area where the surge was located?
I also remember you putting corals right in front where the water came out, did the corals really seem to mind the direct current when the box would empty?
Mike, thanks for the reply. When i saw your surge thats what actually made me want to put one on my tank. But maybe i just remembered it wrong, i thought you used 5 gal acrylic tank...
I you dont mind i did have a couple a questions, since i really wasnt paying as much attention to the equipment as i was to the livestock
Did you have to all modify your overflow slots so the water would lower too much in your 180?
Do you think you could have gone any bigger w/o worrying about that same problem?
At first i was considering putting the surge box in my canopy, but then i realized how much it would shade the side it was on. Did you just have no corals under the area where the surge was located?
I also remember you putting corals right in front where the water came out, did the corals really seem to mind the direct current when the box would empty?
the corals in front loved the flow, had massive extension on the millepora's.
as far as the water level: it does not affect it like you think it would. I used a mag 24 and pushed nearly 75% of teh water to that holding tank for the surge so it would flush every30- 40 seconds or so. the overflows handled it fine! you get flucuation in the sump which to date is unavoidable but it had no negative effects on my skimmer or anything else that I can think of.
over all it was a learning experience and something that I will tinker with in the future as well. maybe I can work with a few other reefers here to develpoe a quit surge system.
the next tank when I move (if I set up something big) will have opposing surges and the oceans motions system.
unless oceans motions starts production of there wave action simulator then I will just get that.
Bigger would have lowered the tank more, I mean it hold more water! the only way around that is to half fill I think before you start the pump. that way you already sort of have a reserve. 5 gallon is a good amount of force coming out of a 1.5 inch elbow. go bigger on the elbow to reduce the velocity. you want a lot of water to dump and the bigger opening allows that but also dissipates the force I believe. my surge rolled all the way to the other side and back. the bubble I cannot help with right now. my design caused them. If you copy Eric's from the book I think you will not encounter them at all.
as far as the water level: it does not affect it like you think it would. I used a mag 24 and pushed nearly 75% of teh water to that holding tank for the surge so it would flush every30- 40 seconds or so. the overflows handled it fine! you get flucuation in the sump which to date is unavoidable but it had no negative effects on my skimmer or anything else that I can think of.
over all it was a learning experience and something that I will tinker with in the future as well. maybe I can work with a few other reefers here to develpoe a quit surge system.
the next tank when I move (if I set up something big) will have opposing surges and the oceans motions system.
unless oceans motions starts production of there wave action simulator then I will just get that.
Bigger would have lowered the tank more, I mean it hold more water! the only way around that is to half fill I think before you start the pump. that way you already sort of have a reserve. 5 gallon is a good amount of force coming out of a 1.5 inch elbow. go bigger on the elbow to reduce the velocity. you want a lot of water to dump and the bigger opening allows that but also dissipates the force I believe. my surge rolled all the way to the other side and back. the bubble I cannot help with right now. my design caused them. If you copy Eric's from the book I think you will not encounter them at all.
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171 Posts
surge
sean,
i was going to purchase neo's tank about 8 mths ago( money prob's on my part ). if he will post pics or explain how he has it done,it is the best one i have seen for a long time and surges out of this world and is adj. someone try to get in contact with him.hell i would like to have the plans myself thanks all
sean,
i was going to purchase neo's tank about 8 mths ago( money prob's on my part ). if he will post pics or explain how he has it done,it is the best one i have seen for a long time and surges out of this world and is adj. someone try to get in contact with him.hell i would like to have the plans myself thanks all
Joined
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171 Posts
surge
mike
is that the same device you had in the canopy of your large tank??? or did you have one in the sump i cant remember!!!!
mike
is that the same device you had in the canopy of your large tank??? or did you have one in the sump i cant remember!!!!
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