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Mucho Reef said:
...I was going to post a picture of my tank, but didn't want to come off as being vain, arrogant or cocky to prove my point. ...

Mucho
I don't mind you posting a picture, and I wouldn't think you'd come across as vain, arrogant or cocky - just as someone who has had tremendous success! It can be worth more than 1000 words-devil and you know we all love seing pictures. LOL
 
I don't think anyone said using a flow meter is stupid or not helpful. To be honest I haven't quite learned the best eyeballing of zoas and paly's myself yet, I am still learning alot about them. When I saw the diy flow meter idea I thought it would be a great learning tool for me until I am capable of noticing such things myself with the naked eye. I can personally see each side of the debate, and both are correct in my opinion. And mentioned previously about it being time for hobbyists to step up to the plate now that there is alot more information, I agree to a point. I love being a hobbyist, and learning new things fuels the fire for me, but the simple pleasures of my reef tank are what keep the fire lit, relaxing, staring at my tank and mentally recording how things are growing and what reactions to changes things in my tank have. You are all very smart and knowledgeable, and the info in this thread is very valuable.
 
I read this thread and keep thinking...... do I really need to be a scientist to manage my reef tank.... I can see where having a flow meter and knowing how much flow i need and adjusting this just so may help, but........ Mucho comes into my shop where my tank is and consistently comments on how he's never seen a tank where all the zoas have such long skirts on them..... that it is an indicator of happy and healthy zoanthids! now, I don't know if I have optimal flow, I don't know if it's close to what the zoanthids experience in their natural habitat...... All I know that I can place some zoas in my tank and have noticeable growth in as little as a week! I have a feeling that if I consistanly get great growth....... that my flow and feeding habits are sufficient.

another point I think of, how many of us have corals that come from totally different areas positioned right next to each other in our tank...... so lets say the acro I have should have x amount of flow.... and the milli I have should have y amount of flow..... (according to where they came from) I am providing z amount of flow and they are happy, healthy and growing. do I need to change the flow?????...... Lets go and ask all those people who've had tanks of the month........ and those that haven't..... what the specific flow is in their tank and I'll bet you in 99.9% (conservative estimate) of the cases, you'll get a response like well, it's about 40x....... or 30x...... etc.. or my pumps turn over about 2000gph, or 3000gph... etc.

there is nothing wrong with analyzing the flow rates, but for the average hobbiest..... IMO I feel it's a bit extreme and unneccessary. The skirts of my zoanthids wiggle just fine! ;)

peace
 
acerhigh said:
another point I think of, how many of us have corals that come from totally different areas positioned right next to each other in our tank...... so lets say the acro I have should have x amount of flow.... and the milli I have should have y amount of flow..... (according to where they came from) I am providing z amount of flow and they are happy, healthy and growing. do I need to change the flow?????......
But what if they weren't happy? What if the table acro colony placed next to your bottlebrush that was happy and thriving started to recede? What if you knew you were providing it with X amount of flow and it typically was found in Y. Sure we can all make guesses. But what if we are completely wrong? Wouldn't it be better to know as much as possible about the conditions that our corals are receiving?

What if you were researching before you purchased? You see that a coral needs 30+ cm/s of flow and the only spot in your tank you have provides 10 cm/s. Wouldn't this be helpful information to have before you make your purchase?

acerhigh said:
Lets go and ask all those people who've had tanks of the month........ and those that haven't..... what the specific flow is in their tank and I'll bet you in 99.9% (conservative estimate) of the cases, you'll get a response like well, it's about 40x....... or 30x...... etc.. or my pumps turn over about 2000gph, or 3000gph... etc.

there is nothing wrong with analyzing the flow rates, but for the average hobbiest..... IMO I feel it's a bit extreme and unneccessary. The skirts of my zoanthids wiggle just fine! ;)
I agree that with certain corals it probably isn't necessary, but it could prove helpful. When we attempt to keep permitted Acropora palmata or Acropora cervicornis you better believe we know what the flow velocity we are providing these corals is. With zoanthids that could live in my toilet, it probably is not quite as important:) . One cannot say that many hobbyist such as Mucho have been anything less than successful with only observation. That doesn't mean that we can't improve. It would be great if hobbyist such as mucho could say "I gave this coral X flow velocity when it showed the best growth/overall health".
 
I agree-not necessary, but it would be very helpful in many situations.
As for zoo's growing in toilets, maybe I should try that-they dont like my tank much! But I do tend to stick them in less than favorable spots. I get terrible to non-existant growth on most.Except of course the ones I dont like:rolleyes: They grow like crazy.

So....:D
I believe there was a question on seasonal effects on growth?
How about it?
 
I've not seen anything about zoas spawning......... that would be kewl..... I've often wondered about it though........ like right now I have a frag disc that I bought two polyps on.... there are about 5 babies right with the two polyps, but approx 3/4 inch away from the two polyps, not touching anything is another polyp. I know I've seen zoas spread by stretching the flesh across an area....... but there is nothing there like this. not the first time I've had "mystery growth" either! :)
 
Maybe old infor but oh well.
I had a single head of Caulastrea. It was doing fine until I did some tank rearranging and it ended up on in the path of 175 gph laminar flow from a power head. Within two days it started tissue recession to where I was seeing some of the blades of the skeleton. I looked in Bornemans book and found that this could be caused by flow so I immediately place it out of direct flow into an aread that I can see some swirling of food. Withing a week it was starting to expand it's tissue back to the bare skeleton blades and within two weeks was back to normal and eating from target feeding again.
I don't have a flow meter to measure the flow but I think the person that takes the time to read about the coral they buy and to understand the flow patterns in their tank can succeed without having to spend money on lab type equipment to measure the actual flow rate.

JMO FWIW
 
Sanfernando said:
So water velocities determined by scientists conducting studies in the wild are just "generic flow recommendations?" If anything what you two are suggesting are extremely rudimentary flow recommendations. I am saying that optimal flow velocities can and should be calculated if you want to find the ideal amount. Should I put enough light on my tank to make it "bright" or should it be "very bright?" Or I could use a light meter and actually KNOW how much light there is at various depths and can then determine if it is optimal for the coral I am trying to keep depending on its natural habitat. Without actually measuring the parameter in question (whatever it may be) you have nothing to base your "recommendation" off of. What is bright, dim, very bright, low flow, high flow, medium flow, etc...? I don't see why you two don't understand this. It's no different than measuring any other important parameter in an aquarium.
I highlighted one point that I thought was interesting in this discussion. Lighting has advanced enough that average hobbyists have been interested in PAR meters and buying them to determine how much useable light is getting into different areas of their tank for some time now. This is normal because it's been talked about and done for a while.

I've only heard of getting a true measurement of flow a few times in the 4+ years that I've been in the hobby. I read about it in Bornemans book and heard about it from MCSaxmaster and mhltcob when they worked at a LFS...and it's not like they were trying to sell me a flow meter or anything because there was nothing to sell me. They just wanted to give me good advice so I could care for my animals better than if I "eyeballed" the flow. I admit that it seemed a bit overwhelming because I was newer in the hobby but realize now that it's ideal.

Anyways, it just seems like people might be reluctant to think about measuring flow because it's not something that's popular or that people have on their minds. I've never heard about it nearly as much as in this thread and it makes much more sense now. It's a great idea that will likely benefit the health of most corals if people choose to try it.

The two people in this thread that brought measuring flow up are in the "scientific field" and while things like measuring flow are done mainly by scientists...it can be done by hobbyists that are keeping animals (corals) that have stricter requirements than say a cat!
 
So water velocities determined by scientists conducting studies in the wild are just "generic flow recommendations?"

Yes, we are growing corals in a glass box, not the wild. IMO they are general guidelines at best, how do you propose in a practical manner to provide Bornemans flow rates to dozens of different species in all our tanks? We should take those recommendations and do the best we can in a captive system. IMO those that will not even do enough free research to find out that their maxi-jet 900 is not enough flow for a 180 gallon tank will not do a "scientific flow test" and there are plenty of non-scientific field members that do very well in maintaining a CAPTIVE system.
 
Kenbow19 said:
So water velocities determined by scientists conducting studies in the wild are just "generic flow recommendations?"

Yes, we are growing corals in a glass box, not the wild. IMO they are general guidelines at best, how do you propose in a practical manner to provide Bornemans flow rates to dozens of different species in all our tanks? We should take those recommendations and do the best we can in a captive system. IMO those that will not even do enough free research to find out that their maxi-jet 900 is not enough flow for a 180 gallon tank will not do a "scientific flow test" and there are plenty of non-scientific field members that do very well in maintaining a CAPTIVE system.
How does moving an organism from the wild to captivity change its basic needs for survival? Do the optimal flow velocities for a coral change as soon as it is brought into captivity? Do the minimum and maximum tolerable flow velocities of a coral change just because it is in your tank instead of on a reef? No, these things do not change. I can't keep a wolf in captivity and feed it solely iceberg lettuce because it won't be meeting one of its basic needs for survival (nutrition). Just because it is in captivity doesn't mean any of its basic needs have changed in the least. I can feed it horse meat while in captivity (which is a very common captive carnivore diet by the way) which will meet its nutritional requirements and if its other requirements are met as well it should do fine. Without knowing what an organisms needs to survive and thrive in the wild, there is no way to be successful keeping it in captivity no matter what kind of organism it is.

Using flow velocities that have been tested by scientists in the wild is a great way to help meet the basic needs of captive corals. The corals may be able to handle a wide range of flow velocities and survive, but they will not necessarily thrive in a suboptimal environment. I do feel that many hobbyists would have greater success if instead of keeping the typical garden reef, they only kept organisms that had the same basic care requirements and could then tailor their system to meet those requirements with optimal conditions for all inhabitants. If a hobbyist does keep a garden reef aquarium with corals from many different habitats, none of the corals may be in optimal conditions but the conditions they are in may still be within their tolerences and allow them to live but not necessarily thrive in the tank.

I have stated before several times a simple way to apply the water flow guidelines to the corals we keep in our systems as well as an easy way to test the water velocities in our aquariums using a few common household items. How is the water velocity chart I have been discussing a general guideline? What do you suggest instead? Putting everything in medium flow to start with? You seem to be so against using actual water flow data from real reefs yet offer no other alternative. What do you recommend instead to find the optimal flow velocities for captive corals?

Yes there are a good number of people that are successful and have no scientific background, no one ever said that was a requirement to keep a reef aquarium. I also never have stated that if you don't measure flow velocities you will be unsuccessful. I am however saying that by measuring flow velocities you may be MORE successful. When you provide the OPTIMUM environment for any organism you will have much greater success than if you provide the minimum or for that matter anything else besides the optimum. If you don't want to measure the water velocities in your aquarium that is fine, no one is forcing you to. There are however people that are interested in providing the best environment for their organisms and the OPTIMUM amount of water flow was inquired about earlier in this thread. I am interested to hear what you suggest as an alternative to achieve optimum water flow in a captive environment.
 
I am interested to hear what you suggest as an alternative to achieve optimum water flow in a captive environment.

Experience, such as 14 years of reef keeping afford;) NO book or class can compare to what you can learn Hands on in the real world.

The way you suggest measurement would require linear flow, the flow in my tank is very turbulent and would not do well in your test, so does that mean my flow is not OPTIMAL. I would suggest members research their corals needs and use the best location available in the tank based on the General flow requirments listed in Bornemans book and others.
 
Kenbow19 said:
The way you suggest measurement would require linear flow, the flow in my tank is very turbulent and would not do well in your test, so does that mean my flow is not OPTIMAL. I would suggest members research their corals needs and use the best location available in the tank based on the General flow requirments listed in Bornemans book and others.
Certain water flow meters (even expensive ones) would not accurately work in some reef applications. For the food test (which is a crude way of measuring flow) the direction of the flow is not important. Are you telling me you experience a net velocity of 0 cm/s around your coral? I understand a reef tank (as far as the immediate area surrounding the coral) is almost always turbulent, even when provided with laminar flow. However, there is almost always a net force in a particular direction. A particle will probably change in velocity and possibly direction. The direction of the particle will produce less than a straight line in some instances (hence a loss in accuracy). If your currents reverse direction and the particle travels in reverse this is o.k. We won't use "negative" distances. It is not important in our measurements which way the flow is going at a particular time. We will need to take say 10 or so measurements. In this way we can obtain a high, low, and average velocity for each desired area. This method will be a bit easier and more accurate when used in conjunction with a video camera. I understand it is neither very sophisticated nor terribly accurate. We are not trying to produce statistically significant results that would hold up when defending a doctoral thesis. This test does provide a simple way to obtain a ballpark estimate of water velocity in a meaningful unit.

There have also been other proposed, relatively simple, mechanisms to obtain meaningful measurements in comparison to the natural coral reef such as the clod card technique. This method would define flow as the loss of mass /dissolution rate/diffusion factor, so it would not be in a velocity unit, but still comparable to the natural coral reef (and the available field data) and to other reef tanks.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/93/m093p175.pdf

How do you propose somebody meets the needs of the corals if they have nothing to define high, medium, low flow or measure their own? Should we just define medium flow as a flow between low and high? Than we can define low flow as lower than medium and high, and high flow as higher than medium and low:) . Or we could logically come up with a way to measure water flow in understandable, comparable units. In this way we could make comparisons between other aquariums and the natural environment.
 
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