As Soulfighter has pointed out, Cryptocaryon irritans (marine ich) is not a virus nor a bacterium. It is a parasite. A more apt analogy for humans would be lice. Would you argue that lice is ever present and cannot be eradicated? If so, remind me never to come and visit your house to see your aquarium.

 

I believe that ich is similar to strep in humans. As humans, we carry strep (the bacteria that causes strep throat) all the time. What causes us humans to come down with strep infections is a weakened immune system. I have heard, and strongly believe, that it is the same in fish. That they carry it all the time and what causes it to show its ugly head is the stress that a new fish goes through when it is put into a new tank.

LIZ

 

Raptor,
I checked with the fish disease gods and they say that ich certianly cannot be brought in through your frozen foods. Without a host, salt water, and the correct temps. the parasite would certainly perish.

Sped,
I think that your argument based on viruses always being with us is a valid one. However, ich is a parasite, not a virus, so the analogy doesn't work in this situation.

Glen,
Yup, we agree that tanks can be made ich free, and that it is a lot of work. I am now a qt'er of everything. I brought in some ich once through an acro frag that I didn't qt. It was given to me and I was moving at the time and had no qt setup going. I thought "what are the odds?", and ended up being on the losing side.

I think that maybe the reason the myth that ich is always present and you cannot get rid of it is based on the fact that in the wild it probably is always present. Fish get it occasionally and they get rid of it without any trouble. However, our tiny little closed systems can turn into parasite incubators pretty quickly for many different reasons. Do I think that everyone will qt everything they get? Not a chance. I can't even convince my own sister to do it. It just doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of people with hardy livestock. But when you are keeping a lot of the more "Delicate" species, I can't do enough to emphasize how great of an asset to your tank health qt can be. A little prevention is a lot easier than all of the work it will be to tear your tank apart, let it fallow, and keep all of your fish in treatment all at once.

 

I agree that a tank can be MADE parasite free, I just think keeping it that way would require an emense ammount of attention to detail and Q'ing.

I know because I understand the life cycle of ich. There has been a lot of research done on it, and I'll share with you the basic life cycle of ich.
...
They then attach to a hard surface for the Tomont stage. After they harden they start making daughter cells called tomites, which in a reef setting hatch out after 3-28 days with the most being between 4-8 days. (Colorni, 1985)
...

Do you Q EVERYTHING that gets put into your tank for at least 28 days?

If not the Tomonts can come in on any hard surface that enters your tank.
and once in that can live undetcted on hosts that have strong immune systems in small numbers, likly in the gills, without causing undue stress or illness.

I firmly beleive that Ich closely parallels that of the fur mite in animals, It is always present in their enviroment, zero stress and good health keeps it at bay, but introduce one stressor, and it can quickly becoma a slippery slope. Stress causes parasite to get a foothold, Parasite causes more stress and reduced immunity, stronger foothold, and so on. And unless the cycle is broken, I feel it is the STRESS and it's side effects that cause death, not the actual parasite. A simple FW dip, in some cases (like with my puffers) is enough to reduce their stress level to get them back on the uphill road to fighting it off.

Don't get me wrong, I also use every other trick in the book to help reduce their stress and infection level. Hypo, Dips and if it gets bad, copper. I run UV as a precaution to help keep the numbers low but still mistakes happen.

Aain I say It can be done but the hard part is keeping it that way.

-Glen

 

I say it stays and is allways there.. What if it was looked at as the chickenpox of water.. Varicella stays with us and will or won`t cause problems later in life..What if its a single cell or? -help me here -that holds the problem? The liquid world must have its viruses. Can`t a single cell lead to something? Oh yea LIFE...... Science from land lovers on the oceans has its limits. If we lived in water our studies on air and land would be diff.. 49 yrs of fish tanks for me say ich is there.... Ok never mind.. Ed

 

I know because I understand the life cycle of ich. There has been a lot of research done on it, and I'll share with you the basic life cycle of ich.


The trophont phase is where you see it attached to your fish and are there for 3-7 days. (Colorni & Diamant, 1993. Colorni, 1985)

Then they hit the Protomont stage which is what they are right after they leave the host, which is usually right before sunlight. (Burgess & Mathews, 1994b)

They then attach to a hard surface for the Tomont stage. After they harden they start making daughter cells called tomites, which in a reef setting hatch out after 3-28 days with the most being between 4-8 days. (Colorni, 1985)

The Theront stage is the free swimming parasite that goes around looking for a fish. They live for about 12-48 hours without a host. (Burgess & Matthews, 1994a.Yoshinaga & Dickerson, 1994. Colorni, 1985)

Now the reason hyposalinity works is because Tomonts are destroyed by the hyposaline conditions thus ending the life cycle of Ich.

So the reason that I don't have ich is because I

A. left my display fallow for 8 weeks, which means that any Tomonts that were in my tank will hatch out within the next 28 days, and finding no host die. That would totally stop and destroy the life cycle of the parasite.

B. For 6 weeks my fish were all going through hyposalinity. Thus the Tomonts were destroyed and the parasite was unable to reproduce and re-infect my fish. Sure, the trophonts were still on my fish at first, but as they left the host and became protomonts and then tomonts, they were destroyed.

I suppose there is a small small chance that there I had a hyposaline resistant strain of ich., but that chance is very very slight.

Like I said before, if you read that 5 part series written by Terry B., you will have a very good understanding of the parasite and have many myths and misconceptions cleared up.

 

Soal,

You say "youve done it" (rid your tank of Ich and kept it away.) My question is: How do you know?

Just because you have no visiable outbreaks dose not mean you are free of the parasite. Unless you do a microscopic survey of your tank and fish you can never be "Sure". But if you do keep your fish happy and healthy the chance the parasite can get a foothold is lessened to near zero. So a happy healthy fish population will mean that you'll likly never see an outbreak.

-Glen

I agree wit that.

 

Soal,

You say "youve done it" (rid your tank of Ich and kept it away.) My question is: How do you know?

Just because you have no visiable outbreaks dose not mean you are free of the parasite. Unless you do a microscopic survey of your tank and fish you can never be "Sure". But if you do keep your fish happy and healthy the chance the parasite can get a foothold is lessened to near zero. So a happy healthy fish population will mean that you'll likly never see an outbreak.

-Glen

 

I'll get back to you on the frozen ich.

 

This is a good discussion.

You can rid your tank of ich. I've done it and known several others who have, but even better yet is keeping it from ever getting into your tank.

I have also seen some people that had an outbreak in their tank when they added a new fish, but then everything seemed to get all better. I have also seen people add a new fish without qt and lose almost everything because of ich. To me it is too risky to have ich in my tank. For me it is worth it to just qt properly. My sister on the other hand never qt's anything and she has occasional ich outbreaks and loses stuff every now and then, but nothing that is really too bad.

What I think would be interesting to find out is why sometimes the ich will kill a fish or several fish, and other times it just "goes away"?

 

Flys cant live in cold temps either, But they can get tottaly frozen and come back as soon as temps come back to where they can.
I have seen fish die from ich too, and i have seen the same exact species of fish not even get touched by it with the infected fish living in the same tank.
I assume you guys read that when in a certain period that when the ich drops from the fish to the substrate to reproduce that they do so in the dark.
Another reason i dont believe the fish in the whole ocean theorie.
They evolved to attack where the food is since they have so little tme to get to it.

How can you explain a tank that all the fish have been quarinteened for 45 days before addition, and ich free and no new additions for 2 plus years, and all of a sudden when a pair of fish decide to mate annd terrorize the tankmates and some come down with ich.
I used to be like you guys and thought i could controll what went in my tank.
Since then i realized and gave up, If it gets it it gets it. Theres worse diseases like marine velvet. Now that you can prevent.
Theres another motto i go by and thats if i cant afford to lose it dont keep it.
Just wanted to state i have no ill feelings i am just throwing my opinions out.

 

Raptor I'm not knocking your position and if it appeared that I was i apologize.

I admit that it would not be easy to rid a system of Ich and insure that it stays that way. It would require very strict Qt processes and very careful seperation and sterilization of epuipment o make sure it stayed out.

Alot of people probably do have Ich in their tanks all the time just waiting for a chance to take hold and cause major death and destruction. I just don't think that it is everyone's tank all the time and can not be completely removed.

BTW I love this discussion. Lot's of good points and experience.

 

I have seen cases where happy healthy fish fought off ich and I have seen cases where they have died too.

 

Ich has never been found in any water cooler than 12C. I doesn't appear to be able to live in anything cooler than that, so I'm pretty sure that it can't live in frozen food.

Jee, B.Y., Kim, K.H., Park, S.I. & Kim, Y.C. “A New Strain of Cryptocaryon irritans from the Cultured Olive Flounder Paralichthys olivaceus.” Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 43, 211-215, 2000.

 

Healthy happy fish is a ich free fish. Thats my motto.

IME you are right on that! I have had new fish with ich. With a good healthy tank and diet it has gone away never to return. Nothing scientific-just my own experience

 

Ich couldn't come in frozen food because the freezing process would kill it.[/QUOTE]

do ya know for sure?

 

I have skimmed thru the linkl you provided, and there is some good info there.
I have tried all that extreme quarinteening o only get ich when a fish got stressed.
At one time i had 5-6000.00 bucks of fish in my tanks. Dont ya think i would want whats best?
I am sorry if i sound that way but i have tried all those solutions.
Healthy happy fish is a ich free fish. Thats my motto.

 

No offense, but it actually seems like it is you that has made up your mind. We are offering other information with scientific backing and you are presenting your experience. Not that your experience isn't valuable, but it conflicts with both the exerpience that others have had and the scientific evidence being presented in recent years. We should all be open to what is brought to the table in these discussions.

Ich couldn't come in frozen food because the freezing process would kill it.

 

Using copper on a fish that eats algae is not a good idea. What happens to macro when subjected to copper.
I have done all that, But use copper. I hate to use copper. You killing a parasite that can do damage to the fish you are treating. IMO
I have no scientific book i am going by i am going by my experience.
Seems like i am talking for nothing though because it seems you made your decision.
How do you know its not in frozed prepaired foods ect.
Good luck to you and your endevors.

 

Yes, it is totally possible to rid your tank of the parasites. I have done it, and know many people who have also done it. There are variables that can make it tough though. Even if you let your tank sit fallow for 6 weeks there is a small chance that you can have ich. I think that the longest recorded incubation period for ich was 72 days or something like that. It is very rare, but possible.

Raptor, here is a very good 5 part article for you to read on ich.

http://marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_1.html

 

It is absolutely possible, albeit difficult to ensure you will never have ich. In the five plus years I've been doing this, I've yet to have a problem with ich, and that includes a regal angel, tang and clowns all of which are fairly prone to ich. However, I am also a big fan of QT with copper to ensure ich does not come in on a new fish. It is also wise to qt everything, but I don't do that. Unfortunately its just to hard, and thus far I've been lucky.

 

CMpenny,

I think the QT would need to be 6 weeks for fish, 4 weeks for evetrthing else wet and if you started from dat one that way Yes you could keep a parasite free tank. However one slip and all the extra work could go down the tubes.\

-GLen

 

Soulfighter: Sounds like you have been reading some of the same articles I have. Do you think it is possible to completely rid your tank of the parasite?

Raptor: So even if I maintained my system in a fallow state for 6 weeks. QTed all imports to the system, LR, Corals, Inverts, for 30 days. And Prophylactically treated all in coming fish for 30 days using copper, hyposalinity, or your PROVEN treatment or choice. You still think I would not be able to completely remove the Ich from my system? Since the life cycle of the parasite requires a host it seems to me that it must be possible to get rid of them. The parasites can not survive more than 48 hrs in the thermont stage without attaching to a host. If you don't have fish to host the parasites using the time range of the life cycle of the parasites as a guide a system should be devoid of them in 30 days. If proper QT and treatment is done on new imports it should stop them from entering the once it is clear.

 

I have never seen a q tank take care of ich. Back when i had $500 a piece fish i did everything i mean everything to keep it out.
Can you show me a tank that never had ich? I dissagree i dont think theres a way to keep it out, But i do believe you can keep it at bay.IMO

 

True, but that is because a dust mite is something that lives on dust which is carried large distances through the air. Ich doesn't do that. It has to come in on a fish, coral, snail, crab, live rock, etc. And since it has a limited lifespan without a host, it can be easily kept out of your aquarium through simple qt procedures.