I am planning on going bare bottom on the 180. Any pros, cons and suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Wayne
Thanks,
Wayne
waynesreef
21 - 40 of 155 Posts
He's not trying to attack you in any way. It's just that ""SPS" do better in a BB tank" is misinformation. He's spent alot of time learning about corals at school and in the hobby so he probably gets frustrated when he sees misinformation being circulated around. He was basically saying that is misinformation and the million tanks that grow "SPS" fine with a DSB prove it, just in a frustrated way. 
Congrats. Are you going starboard or do you plan to just do rock on glass? If starboard, my only suggestion would be to figure out a good way to keep the edges down so detritus doesn't go underneath. I have yet to figure out if this really matters or not, but I do have a noticable amount underneath my starboard. Other then that, just learn where your stuff collects and syphon regularly. It definitely is much easier to add sand later then scoop the smelly, nasty stuff out later .
.mythinformation (spelled intentionally) abounds in the hobby. BB/SSB/DSB .............Gotta love the abbrev. list we have but the "my bike is better than yours" philosophy that goes with it is outrageous.
Many conventional methods start out as off the wall ideas that show merit. Ultimately it is not worth flame throwing debates. Discussions are certainly welcome but when it gets obnoxious it is time to refocus.
My newest endeavor is a BB system mainly because I wanted high flow in the tank and do not see the sand stayign on the bottom in such a closed environment while being subject to wave action and high flow. The decision had more to do with accurately (as much as possible) replicating a high energy reef zone (reef crest) than the lastest greatest widget experiment
When you follow the herd all your life you end up with smelly feet why....... because you can only walk behind for so long before you start stepping in it-devil sometimes you gotta do your own thing and take your lumps and learn something doing it.
Many conventional methods start out as off the wall ideas that show merit. Ultimately it is not worth flame throwing debates. Discussions are certainly welcome but when it gets obnoxious it is time to refocus.
My newest endeavor is a BB system mainly because I wanted high flow in the tank and do not see the sand stayign on the bottom in such a closed environment while being subject to wave action and high flow. The decision had more to do with accurately (as much as possible) replicating a high energy reef zone (reef crest) than the lastest greatest widget experiment
When you follow the herd all your life you end up with smelly feet
why....... because you can only walk behind for so long before you start stepping in it-devil sometimes you gotta do your own thing and take your lumps and learn something doing it.
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PaintGuru,
I am going to use starboard and planning to use silicon seal all the edges so the debris will not go underneath the starboard.
Guys,
Please do not start a debate as which system is better. Every system is different and all have pros and cons. That is why make this hobby so interesting.
I am going to use starboard and planning to use silicon seal all the edges so the debris will not go underneath the starboard.
Guys,
Please do not start a debate as which system is better. Every system is different and all have pros and cons. That is why make this hobby so interesting.
Pro's: You can increase the flow, you can see the debris pile up, and the rest are anecdotal. ( DSB nutrient sink, BB better sps growth etc)
Con's: You have to siphon weekly, you can see the debris build up.
I use BB in my frag tank. I think its a PITA.
Con's: You have to siphon weekly, you can see the debris build up.
I use BB in my frag tank. I think its a PITA.
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I'm relaxed.ezhoops said:Here we go.
You would think I was insulting their first born.
RELAX...I'm not debating anything
If you look a bit more closely, what Mike (E-Quality) and I posted are pretty much in agreement.
Well, Waynesreef, I don't think you can say "Any pros, cons and suggestions are welcome" and then not expect people to debate the pros and cons. If I see pros and cons stated as the opinions they are, I won't need to argue anything. If I see anecdote presented as fact or observations with miniscule or corrupted samples presented as proper fodder for predictions - well, I have to argue those.
That said, here are my opinions based on my experience and on my knowledge of the underlying science. (Anyone who doesn't understand what I mean in that sentence, lease read no further.)
Cons of a BB:
In my experience, you'll see slower growth in corals in a BB system. I've never seen a BB system that had growth rates rivaling the better DSB systems. This hasn't been quatified by anyone, and there are so many variables it likely never will be.
Looks ugly. Hard to qualify "ugly" scientifically, but I think everyone in the world should agree with me, so I proclaim BB to be ugly.
The detritus settles and pretty much demands to be vacuumed out. Which is not to my liking because I really want the detritus to stay in the system since that's what my corals eat. In a BB system the detritus goes down the toilet after you maunally remove it. In a DSB the detritus gets turned into coral tissue while I sit there enjoying watching the corals.
BB tanks crash. Just like DSB tanks crash. And starboard tanks. And Zeo tanks. And upside down, five dimensional tanks with eco-aqualizers on them. Aquarists make tanks crash, substrates don't. However, in my experience it's far easier to crash a BB than a DSB. For you it may be different.
Pros of a BB:
You can sleep easier because you won't be terrified of all the terrible things a DSB is "guaranteed" to do at some point.
Sorry, in my opinion there aren't any pros unless you really hate the look of sand, so I made up a sarcastic one.
Regardless, have fun with it and I'm sure it'll work just fine.
That said, here are my opinions based on my experience and on my knowledge of the underlying science. (Anyone who doesn't understand what I mean in that sentence, lease read no further.)
Cons of a BB:
In my experience, you'll see slower growth in corals in a BB system. I've never seen a BB system that had growth rates rivaling the better DSB systems. This hasn't been quatified by anyone, and there are so many variables it likely never will be.
Looks ugly. Hard to qualify "ugly" scientifically, but I think everyone in the world should agree with me, so I proclaim BB to be ugly.
The detritus settles and pretty much demands to be vacuumed out. Which is not to my liking because I really want the detritus to stay in the system since that's what my corals eat. In a BB system the detritus goes down the toilet after you maunally remove it. In a DSB the detritus gets turned into coral tissue while I sit there enjoying watching the corals.
BB tanks crash. Just like DSB tanks crash. And starboard tanks. And Zeo tanks. And upside down, five dimensional tanks with eco-aqualizers on them. Aquarists make tanks crash, substrates don't. However, in my experience it's far easier to crash a BB than a DSB. For you it may be different.
Pros of a BB:
You can sleep easier because you won't be terrified of all the terrible things a DSB is "guaranteed" to do at some point.
Sorry, in my opinion there aren't any pros unless you really hate the look of sand, so I made up a sarcastic one.
Regardless, have fun with it and I'm sure it'll work just fine.
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Sorry, edit it if you must, but I couldn't let it go. -devilnovi tony said:
Wayne, what lighting, circulation, export mechanisms, etc. do you plan to use?
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Now that's just crazy... senseless bashing of eco-aqualizers.Kirbster said:
If I were Zell Miller, you'd be choosing your weapon!
Sorry... too much green tea with too much ginseng.
i dont think they are ugly.. why should everyone think they are ugly?Kirbster said:
see everything everyone has is an opion on.. so you think some things.. others think others. and such. my experiance is i get better growth and coral color from my BB.. my dsb i could never get right.. probaly my fault not arguing that.. for me it is way better to have crazy flow.. big skimmer and no sand. no algea outbreaks no dieing corals, wonderful color and growth. so there is where different things work for different people.. keep us all updated on the progress wayne will be good to see...
I do hope you know the "but I think everyone in the world should agree with me" is a reference to the way most substrate discussions go. Demanding agreement on things that are clearly matters of opinion. In other words I don't think the whole world should agree with me...though it would be nice at times...
And yes, I think a bare bottom tank is really ugly. I also think Angelina Jolie is ugly - and I'm a raging heterosexual. Sometimes there's just no explanation for personal taste in aesthetics.
Bob,
At the risk of appearing dumb, I miss the connection between Zell Miller and Eco-Aqualizers. He uses them? They're made in Georgia? Eco-aqualizers are violently conservative southern democrats? Feel free to enlighten me by PM if it's a long story so as not to hi-jack this thread.
And yes, I think a bare bottom tank is really ugly. I also think Angelina Jolie is ugly - and I'm a raging heterosexual. Sometimes there's just no explanation for personal taste in aesthetics.
Bob,
At the risk of appearing dumb, I miss the connection between Zell Miller and Eco-Aqualizers. He uses them? They're made in Georgia? Eco-aqualizers are violently conservative southern democrats? Feel free to enlighten me by PM if it's a long story so as not to hi-jack this thread.
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Chris you have an agent! You dog you.E-quality said:He's not trying to attack you in any way. It's just that ""SPS" do better in a BB tank" is misinformation. He's spent alot of time learning about corals at school and in the hobby so he probably gets frustrated when he sees misinformation being circulated around. He was basically saying that is misinformation and the million tanks that grow "SPS" fine with a DSB prove it, just in a frustrated way.
Wyane,
You are a very experienced and successful reef aquarist, I am sure you will succeed in the BB endeavor. When I setup my tank I went bare bottom with starboard I did not silicone the board down and had no problems with stuff getting under it (LR was more than enough to hold it down), I then changed my mind and went with a MSB (hmmm new acronym?) and removing the starboard was no problem, but if it was silicon-ed down it would have been a pain, just my experience. I am sure you know but you can get HDPE board from US plastics, great prices and options and if you want different than white they have it. Good luck and have fun!
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You just keep crossing the line Kirbster...Kirbster said:
But - given your "rage" issues, I'll back off.
QUESTION (for real): In my sand-based tank, I obviously don't vacuum out the "funk" (other than the occasional cyano patch)... SO the detritus (i.e. poop/waste) stays around and feeds my corals.
In my BB frag tank, I regularly vacuum this stuff out... because it's unsightly, it's "waste", etc... but really, wouldn't it be better to just leave that funk in there? let it breakdown, OR - does the lack of sand-bed critters not allow it to "return to whence it came" rapidly enough to warrant keeping it (and it just looks tacky...).
I'm just not into the whole DSB thing -and can find enought compelling arguments to NOT set one up, but they're not compelling enough to make me take it out (if I had one). Does that make sense?
BUT, to my orignal question - is it the sand-bed critters that do the bulk of the breakdown to get this "poop" turned into coral food, so as to preclude it being feasible to just leave it on a BB?
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Scooby,
I would think sans a sand bed (cool phrase huh?) there would not be enough bacteria to properly process the detritus. That is my take with no scientific research to back that up.
Angelina Jolie is one of those people that is somtimes smokin others not so much, is there a BB v DSB anology in there?
I would think sans a sand bed (cool phrase huh?) there would not be enough bacteria to properly process the detritus. That is my take with no scientific research to back that up.
Angelina Jolie is one of those people that is somtimes smokin others not so much, is there a BB v DSB anology in there?
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Sure you areKirbster said:
In a word - yes. In a BB with insane flow you should be able to keep a lot of the detritus in suspension, which is good, but I haven't met a tank yet without some degree of settling. In a BB this appears to be broken down rapidly by bacteria, leading to unsavory byproducts. In a DSB set up properly and mature, I never see detritus. It settles, for sure, but it is processed immediately. Then you get worm and pod feces and worm eggs, etc. All highly nutritious sources of coral food. It's like getting your money's worth seven times out of all the food input that goes in. Paying for good food and throwing it away after one quick trip through a fish's gut isn't for me. That stuff needs to be digested at least five or six times before it's allowed to leave. If you look at the assimilation efficiency of fish it'd make you cry to siphon out the fish poop.
A BB can approach having a food web capable of cycling a high degree of nutrients but it never achieves the same diversity, efficiency, or functionality in that respect. Here's a test: Take two average 100 gallon reefs. Both are 3 years old, full of healthy corals and fish. They can either have skimmers or not. They can have refugiums or not - shouldn't matter for this test. Only difference is mine has a DSB and yours is BB. The rules are that after the test begins neither one of us can do any vacuuming or water changing for one month. The test begins with each of handed a cup of a half pound (8 oz.) of your favorite frozen food. (You get to pick the food, since this is my idea.
) I begin by pouring my entire cup into my tank. Are you willing to do the same to yours? If I were you I wouldn't. I can pretty much guarantee you my tank will be fine when the month is up. Maybe yours would be too, but I kind of doubt it.The first response will be, this is meaningless because you don't put a half pound of food in your tank. And there may be a point there, but I think it speaks to the stability of a DSB that I can do this. (And yes, I've done this test in some form or another several times. Not every time intentional!) I feed my tanks extremely heavily and tend to get extreme coral growth as a result. I like being able to do that. And I like knowing that crazy people like MCSaxmaster can sneak into my house and hide a dead grouper in my tank and it won't matter if I can't get it out until the next evening. (No, that hasn't actually happened...yet.)
So considering my experiences and the phenomenal success I've seen with other hobbyists and coral farmers, and the fact that I haven't seen any other methods achieve anything surpassing it, I'll stay with DSB.
Keira Knightley (on a good day) blows Angelina away.
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