Lets talk about kalk reactors

jimsflies · Feb 20, 2008

I should have asked everyone to post this along with your responses. But how is everyone measuring pH? Are you measuring continuously with a controller?

I have tried to only top off at night to even out the day/night pH swings. But that does not work well with my existing system. If have the top off during the day, the water level drops...no big deal. But then when it powers back on, it will add all the top off at once which in turn will just cause a high spike to occur at that point and time. I guess if I had a seperate top off that I used during the day and then a dosing pump connected to a kalk reactor or bucket of saturated lime to use at night that might help. But I don't want all that extra equipment to deal with.

For a while I had the top off controlled by the controller using pH (and water level) as a guide. After a couple months of that the osmolator ac adaptor stopped working. I suspect it was from being turned on and off too many times so I changed the program to not use pH anymore to control the top off.

I noticed my pH is much better today (stable at 8.22-8.24) after filling the tunze caclium dispenser with significantly more lime. If that doesn't work out for me, I think I will look into a geo reactor based on the responses I am getting on this thread. I think I could still put the geo reactor inside of my top off water and use it like a more sophisticated version of the calcium dispenser that I am currently using. The less equipment laying around the better.

jimsflies · Feb 20, 2008

By the way Dent, your system looks great. Very clean installation.

Kenbow19 · Feb 20, 2008

Ph measured by a properly calibrated Neptune ACjr

slapshot · Feb 20, 2008

jimsflies said:
Good point Dan.

I have a Neptune Aquacontroller 3 and have been monitoring my pH fairly closely. Starting last summer the pH was measuring high. I had performed a calibration check on the probe and it was fine. So I went quite a while without dosing anything. Still not sure what the deal was, but I decided a after a couple months to re-check the calibration and it was reading high (didn't suprise me and I wished I had checked it again sooner). I am checking calibration of the probe more frequently now than last summer.

Anyway, I have been getting more and more aggressive about maintaining pH. I think in the process of doing so, I have caused some excessive pH swings and caused some bleeching of corals...montis have been doing very poorly. My pH has been dipping to 7.94 at night and with extra dosing of lime or 2 part solution during the day can get as high as 8.4.

Jim, one thing I noticed with my Neptune is if I calibrate it with 4 and 10 it works much better than 7 and 10.

Poseidon · Feb 20, 2008

Ken, my GEO forces the water to enter the chamber at the bottom of the reaction chamber, and then water from the top of the chamber is actually added to the tank. This ensures that the water leaving the reactor is in fact saturated with Lime, unless I don't keep enough lime in there. (I shoot for 1-2" at all times, when it is settled.)

Viva'sReef · Feb 20, 2008

I know it might not matter as much as PH, but if you top-off at night only, your salinity will be bouncing around.

dentdominator · Feb 20, 2008

Poseidon said:
Ken, my GEO forces the water to enter the chamber at the bottom of the reaction chamber, and then water from the top of the chamber is actually added to the tank. This ensures that the water leaving the reactor is in fact saturated with Lime, unless I don't keep enough lime in there. (I shoot for 1-2" at all times, when it is settled.)

Oops, I just cleaned out the reactor yesterday and added to much kalk.

It's measures 6.5 inches when all settled.

However, above the kalk it looks the same as always.

I cant see anything affecting the limewater.

Let me know what you think.

jimsflies · Mar 4, 2008

Curious if anyone has had success with a diy kalk stirrer?

No doubt the Geo stirrer is nice. The Geo seems to hold it's resale value...used on RC they seem to go for around $200. (New they are now around $250 plus shipping @41 pounds.)

Appearances aren't too much of a concern since Iplan to hide the thing inside of my top off reservoir. I can't help wonder if a cheaply done diy stirrer would also do the job. I'm sure it would be nice to see the "kalk blanket" to verify that it is not getting too much mixing...but beyond the initial setup, one probably doesn't need to see inside of the reactor, right? So maybe a 4-inch pvc pipe that has been tapped for the various pump/drain connections would do the job. There are several plans on the net. Although I think I would make it a little prettier than this one, here is a photo of one:

I'm sure that even something like this would be $50-$75 to build with the price of plumbing parts these days.

waucedah_joe · Mar 4, 2008

I never understood the need for a stirrer. I don't think the Tunze accessory has one so when I built mine I used some plans I found on the internet and left out the stirrer. Here's a link to my build thread along with reference for the plans.

http://upmmas.com/smforum/index.php?topic=28.0

Here's a picture

jimsflies · Mar 4, 2008

Looks like a nice job...it would be easy enough to add a pump to that to stir if you decided you wanted one.

I currently use the Tunze gizmo and have decided that a stirrer would provide far more consistent results. I monitor pH continuously and can tell that after a day the kalk dispenser needs to be stirred.

Tom@HaslettMI · Mar 4, 2008

Hey Jim,
I'm trying to think back to when I saw your tank last...If I remember correctly the Tunze Ca dispenser was laying on the bottom of the top-off reservoir. Is this still the case, and could that be part of the stirring issue? With the dispenser laying on its side I could see kalk settling in areas that the incoming water wouldn't disturb. If the dispenser was hung vertically then the incoming water at the bottom might more effectively stir the kalk. Just a thought.

HTH,
Tom

jimsflies · Mar 4, 2008

Tom - Good memory. On a theoretical level I agree with you. But in practice I'm not sure it will make up the difference that a well stirred slurry would provide.

Even though I haven't mounted the tunze dispenser I try to make sure it is leaning in such a way that the inlet is on the bottom so that top off water still has to pass through the kalk to make it's way out the top of the container.

waucedah_joe · Mar 4, 2008

Tom@HaslettMI said:
Hey Jim,
I'm trying to think back to when I saw your tank last...If I remember correctly the Tunze Ca dispenser was laying on the bottom of the top-off reservoir. Is this still the case, and could that be part of the stirring issue? With the dispenser laying on its side I could see kalk settling in areas that the incoming water wouldn't disturb. If the dispenser was hung vertically then the incoming water at the bottom might more effectively stir the kalk. Just a thought.

HTH,
Tom

That was my thinking when I built mine without a stirrer. All water entering the vessel has to pass through the Kalk powder so it pretty much has to be saturated. When my display tank Alk. and pH start to drop I know it's time to open it up, clean it out, and put in more Mrs. Wages.

jimsflies · Mar 31, 2008

Another question for those of you with kalk reactors, how often do you have the stirrer come on and for how long?

Poseidon · Mar 31, 2008

6am and 6pm for 5 minutes each. Works like a charm, and is easier on the impellar of the MJ1200.

mhltcob · Mar 31, 2008

I haven't had time to read all the posts so I am not sure if this has been posted but for those of you who are interested in checking the saturation of your kalkwasser you can use a conductivity meter. The conductivity of saturated kalkwasser at 77°F is 10.3 mS/cm - It will be higher at lower temperatures. By testing various kalkwasser stirrers/dosers you will get a better gauge of which design is most effective. You can also test the effluent's pH, although this method is less effective.

mike77 · Apr 11, 2009

Kalk "Must Reads"

For those that are new to the topic, here are a couple of valuable links to articles by Randy Holmes-Farley:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-05/rhf/feature/index.php
Degradation of Limewater in air. It gives a lot of information on testing the solution, since the topic is necessary to understand before conclusions about degradation can be formed. It is also very reassuring about non-reactor methods of kalk prep and storage for dosing.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php
What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime

Mike77

mike77 · Apr 11, 2009

pH for testing Kalk-You might drive yourself crazy...

mhltcob said:
[Snip] You can also test the effluent's pH, although this method is less effective.

Here is an excerpt from another RHF article. It backs your point on the use of pH for testing Kalk. A decrease of 0.2 pH units would equate to a 37% drop in saturation. If my memory is correct, typical pH meters are +/- 0.2 --the reproducibility is not accurate enough for this task, and you could go crazy chasing phantom problems by using pH to test kalk.

Quote: For certain kinds of pH measurements, direct comparison to a known standard may be more useful than using the absolute readings that the pH meter shows. For example, to assess the strength of limewater via pH, make a standard of known saturated limewater (from, for example, a teaspoon of calcium hydroxide in a cup of pure fresh water). That solution has a pH of about 12.45 at 25ºC, but regardless of what is measured, use the number as the standard and see how far off from actual limewater it is (if it is 0.1 pH unit lower, then the limewater is about 79% saturated; 0.2 pH units lower and it is 63% saturated; 0.3 pH units lower and it is about 50% saturated; 0.4 pH units lower and it is 40% saturated, etc.). In this case, exact temperature equivalence between the samples is important. A difference of only 3ºC means a pH difference of 0.1 pH unit for saturated limewater.
End Quote.

Mike77

sambo · Apr 11, 2009

I "stir" my kalk reactor three times a day for approx. 30 minutes each. That's as short of a time interval as my el cheapo timer will do. I just use the timer you plug into the wall. pH runs between 8.0 in the morning at lights on to 8.3 at lights out. All my topoff water is KW. 225g DT with a 50g sump.

MandarinMan13 · Apr 11, 2009

I am new to kalk reactors so I have been following this thread to get ideas. I have heard about this reactor (stirrer). http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=21382&cat=530&page=1

I see that a lot of people use the GEO reactor. Does the above reactor ^^ look like it would be efficient? Wouldn't there be less of a risk of a disaster by not having to completely stir up the kalk a few times a day like in the GEO design?

Lets talk about kalk reactors

jimsflies

jimsflies

Kenbow19

slapshot

Poseidon

Viva'sReef

dentdominator

jimsflies

waucedah_joe

jimsflies

Tom@HaslettMI

jimsflies

waucedah_joe

jimsflies

Poseidon

mhltcob

mike77

mike77

sambo

MandarinMan13

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